"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Cauliflower,

Lots of your post resonates with my own experiences. Whilst my family wasn't well off, I was often bought things - I now realise this was an attempt by my father to buy me happiness, while he stood by my narcissistic, psychotic, mother; who would go to lengths to distance herself from me - from leaving notes for when I woke telling me what a shit son I was, to ensuring I'd find the empty pill bottles after a suicide attempt. That I was "trouble".

Did your brother get treated in the same way as you and your sister? Did your stepdad never do anything about her behaviour?

To date, I'm in my 40s now, all she talks about is herself and how "bad" I was.

You should seriously consider closing the door and going no contact. You should read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward and "Childhood Disrupted" by Donna Jackson Nazakawa.

What are you feelings about your stepfather during all of it? At best he appears weak, at worst enabling and complicit.

Hi everyone, have avoided this thread while still MNing for a couple of days as I was working nights and didn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards my M.

I’ve finally managed to get a copybook of ‘Toxic Parents’. I really hope it will help. I’m over a week NC with M witch sounds like nothing but from several phoncalls a day it feels like a long time. I have mixed feeling about it. Guilt is the most prominent now.

I’ve been listening to Daughter Detox and tbh, though it has given some insight, it has worried me re my relationship with dd. It’s made me panic that I could be doing the same damage to my own dd by not parenting by the book. Also, it’s kind of made the guilt worse as it explains why a mother may be ‘unloving’ and I feel maybe it’s not her fault.

Over the years when I’ve tried to tackle the guilt I’ve reminded myself that 1)I’m not responsible for my M’s upbringing (sad and dysfunctional as it was) and 2) once you identify you are hurting others and that maybe it could stem from childhood you should address it. It’s her failing to do anything about her pain, hurt, sadness and instead just wanting the world to accept her shitty outbursts and nastiness because ‘it’s not her fault’ that really bothers me. I don’t deny her own mother was a narcissist (M is her carbon copy) but if I can try to break the cycle of dysfunction in our family for both my sake and my dds, shouldn’t she have also tried?

I’ve read all your posts. I’m so sorry to read what you have experienced and MrsRussell what you are up against at the moment. I wish you courage and strength, all of you.

Hopefully I will find answers in this book and be in a better position (knowledge and mentally) to offer some support down the line.

Re the ‘dry drunk’ - that’s exactly what it’s like. I’m currently reading more about it so thank you for suggesting.

all round

@CB “defaults to martyr - “I’m the world’s worst mother I don’t know where I went wrong”

The more I read this thread and lines like that the more I know I’m in the right place. The number of times that line has been spit out out me.

*copy
*which

There’re probably more errors, sorry.

Right, I’ve not even read the first chapter of Toxic Parents and I’m not sure I can do it.

It’s very confronting and upsetting.
All I can see is my M’s sad face and I don’t want to hurt her even with my thoughts

Oh yes I get you @laststraw. My OH often says to.me it's not what I do now that bothers him (as in, when I say I'm going to this or not do that about NSDM) it's how it will make me feel twenty years later. It's not weak not to want to hurt someone: it's a recognition that both of you are human beings. And that's something to be proud of, isn't it?

“defaults to martyr - “I’m the world’s worst mother I don’t know where I went wrong”

That sounds like my DM as well. She does this to stop uncomfortable conversations about our childhood. It makes me feel that I have to worry about upsetting her when I was the one who was abused.

Obviously it has been painful for her learning the extent of what happened, but she really does turn it into a drama.

@ frainbreeze, nice to see you back, nasty about that stalker thing. Wtf!

@laststraw don't think i want to listen to daughter detox then. I'm like you i swing from being angry about past ( less so these days since nc) but also have pang and panic that I've been too judgemental that maybe she was trying her best. Will i live to regret it by gone nc. Plus I'm trying to look forward and not back so often, trying to read about parenting for my ds. I have empathy, don't look for drama infact i hate it, don't triangulate or treat the house like its a bullring ,but i have caught myself at times speaking just like her. Its like i can't help myself it comes automatic like I've been conditioned. I rectify my behaviour instantly and I'm trying hard not to be the mother she was. Im constantly worrying that it will impact upon ds.

I catch myself too and I hate it! I can replay in my head what I’ve said and I’ll hear it in my M’s voice. Thankfully it’s not often but it’s hard to constantly be monitoring myself to make sure I’m not like her. I’d love to be a carefree, confident mum and outwardly I try to portray that but inside I’m shaking, sometimes literally.

The constant questioning if NC is right is relentless but I guess it’s just so early and even then I mostly answer ‘yes’ no matter how much it hurts.

The anger from last week has died down (for me). She told me she didn’t care if she never laid eyes on me (or brother) again. Trotted out the martyr line as above and said there was nothing she could do as nothing would ever make me care about her. That came after I didn’t jump to her call to do something for her. I offered to pay someone to do the same job but she couldn’t accept that because then she wouldn’t have something to feel hard done by and wouldn’t get to play the victim of a terrible, uncaring, selfish daughter and of course she wasn’t controlling me. It brought to mind (though it’s never far) the time she was ranting down the phone how I didn’t love her or give a fuck about her and I said “I do love you mum” and she replied “fuck you ‘straw’ and fuck your love”. Who could say that to their child/adult child if they weren’t a very damaged human being themselves? That’s the guilt. She’s hurting.

I could keep going but the reality is my head and heart are all over the place and I’m unlikely to make sense to any of you if I can’t even make sense to myself. You can probably tell that from my previous ramblings.

I feel like this book is going to ask me to do things akin to tearing my own flesh off. I’m afraid to read it but I will however long it takes.

Goodnight all and good wishes for the week ahead

@laststraw do tell if the book helps. Yes the drama when you don't dance to their tune is diabolical and unlogical. I was once accused and she went into rage mode, of not being loyal to the family cos i couldn't get a day off from work for a distant cousins shot gun wedding. I was the only sibling that would visit regular and treat her like a real person but i was not loyal. When we had our final argument she told me i would need her before she ever needed me. I told her well you won't mind never seeing me again, that one line sums her up perfectly. She never needed me in her life. I was a pawn in her game. Expendable. I think nc for me was justified. My fear is now what happens when she,s ill/ dying. Will i have what mrs russell is going through. My older brother who lives away has already commented on what is he going to do when it comes to it as he's not there to organise stuff. Cop out. Told him well golden younger child can do it. Wish i could emigrate.

Thisisthelaststraw

One of the sites that really did help actually when it came to narcissists and how they operate was this one www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html
and from that I give you this excerpt:-

" It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you."

" Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them. Sometimes narcissists' children become narcissists, too, but this is by no means inevitable, provided stable love was given by someone, such as the non-narcissist parent or grandparents. Beyond that, a happy marriage will heal many old wounds for the narcissist's child. But, even though children of narcissists don't automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent "You can't get blood out of a stone," but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart. Thus, we've been trained to keep loving people who can't love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore.)".

It's your expression of affection towards her that triggered it and I have seen this myself. It took me some while to work out that both my MIL and late FIL are narcissists although the two of them work very differently. FIL was more "typical" shall we say whilst MIL operates more covertly; secrecy and covering up being her watch words here.

"Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people's opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods. Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they'll never share a dream for two".

And do not go down that rabbit hole re her dying etc because its going to happen anyway. Someone else will make the arrangements, it does not have to be you. Where did that come from; did someone from outside the family say this sort of thing to you?.

Toxic stuff like this can and does go down the generations but it has stopped with you. You do not and would not treat your DD like an appendage or a piece of furniture; you see her as both a person and her own person in her own right. Your mother regards you as an extension of her and her own mother did the same. Instead of seeking the necessary help your mother simply repeated what was done to her. She did not try to change.

@Attila thank you so much for taking the time to post that reply. I’ve had a read of the linked website and it certainly has been helpful. I might forward it to db should he raise the issue again.

She hadn’t talked to him for months and had badmouthed him to me for the duration but she’s now talking to him again since she stopped talking to me. He’s not in the same mental space as me so I’ll leave him to it for now and just promise to be there should he ever need me.

I’m halfway through ‘Toxic Parents’. It’s been hard but reassuring. A lot of tears today. Somewhere behind the rawness of it all I feel a glimmer of hope that I can let her go. Shit. That line just set me off again. It’s so hard
Anyway, what I mean is I’m feeling like I may be able to do this. It feels like I need to mourn her. That’s weird. Enough for tonight.

Thank you for listening (reading)

Goodnight all.

I see a lot of ye saying saying ye feel guilty about going NC. I've had NC with my F for 14 years, best decision I've made in my entire life, but I still feel guilty.
I wonder what that's all about? He brought nothing but pain and hurt to my life . He never praised me, hugged me, loved me. He constantly told me how stupid, annoying, ugly I was.
He beat my mum and threatened us constantly. I lived in constant fear of what he would do next .....if he was actually going to kill us all.
But, the guilt lies there. I wonder , if he dies will I regret not giving him another chance? Will I regret not letting him know his grandkids?
But deep inside I know I'm doing the right thing. I know I'm/ we're better off without him. However, the guilt is there and hasn't gone away for me .
Its very sad for all of us. His mother was a narcissist. She smothered him, didn't let him do anything he wanted to do . She was controlling and interfering. She was a nasty piece of work. She constantly bad mouthed my DM and her family to me and called my DM a whore etc to my F, which lead to major fights in our family home. She loved to strike the match, then sit back and watch it all go up in flames.
So part of me feels sorry for him, cos he never had a chance with a mother like that !
How sad is it all !

I think the guilt partly comes from making a decision without their approval.

Now I’ve had space to think I feel as though I’ve always seeked approval, from anyone not just my parents. I have real bad trouble emotionally if I think I’ve disappointed someone. So actively making that decision to go NC causes pain even though I know logically it’s the right decision.

It is sad, @designerenvy, but please think about this - he had the same chance as you did to break the cycle, and he didn't take it. He took all of his rage about his dysfunctional childhood and upbringing on your mother and on you, when you were a defenceless child. That was his choice. You had a dysfunctional childhood too but you made the decision to be different with your own children, to be a good parent (despite having had no role model in your own family about what a good parent looks like). You decided that your children would not suffer in the way you did and you are not taking your rage about your upbringing out on anyone, except perhaps yourself. In my book, that makes you a strong, decent and good person, albeit the one who is now suffering for making that principled decision.

How I wish my mother had made the decision you did. If she had, my three siblings and I would not be struggling with the consequences now.

You are doing what any decent parent would do - protecting your children from known harm. All credit to you then, and please try to hold on to that thought.

@SingingLily a fabulous point and one that will really help me

@singinglily. Thank you so much. I'm not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination ( I have my off days) but my kids Will not experience the fear and hurt I did at their age.
I consider them privileged really, but they're probably not.... just living a normal, healthy childhood.
Thanks for the kind words. I suppose I was lucky cos my DM is an amazing woman. Her major fault was staying in an abusive relationship but she felt she had no way out. It was only when her DF died and left her the family home, that she found her way out and made the big step. I was 17 and my Dsis was 21. A bit late in the day for us , but a blessing for her.
She is the best Nana any child could wish for and has been so supportive and loving to us all.
If my F had that in his life, just one good role model, maybe he would have turned out differently, who knows?
It's good to be able to write about these things cos in RL, I don't want to bother anyone with it , but it's nice to get it out and knowing a lot of people here have been through the same and are now doing so well themselves is reassuring .

Latest update on the NSDM - my erstwhile best friend when I was little (who, with all due respect ie none, is a grade 1 drama sponge) has just left not one but two.messages "wanting to talk to me about mum".Blocked! Ha HA!!!
NSDM isn't toxic in any deliberate sense: she isn't cruel or belittling, she's just a damaged and self-destructive drunk who leaves chaos behind her.
This one, though - Welcome To BT 1572, and kiss my arse!

@Singing, @Designer and @Nora, your most recent posts have really helped. They did have a choice! Just as we did and they continued to abuse the ones they should have protected and nurtured.

@MrsRussell, well done! I dread those messages and calls. They will come, I know it and I hope I can be as strong.

Have a lovely day everyone

You have a lovely day to Thisisthelaststraw and everyone else

There's been very interesting posts this past few days, I'm sorry for your terrible experiences. Really am.

So it was fathers' birthday yesters, I slept all day, then dropped a card in. I'm now in the car freezing my balls off outside a supermarket so good time to post.

It was...different this time, as though I'd equated in my mind what to expect, I just felt numb and emotionless. Sitting here I am having the cPTSD kick off which isn't nice, but it just felt like I'd put a wall, some distance in place. I also found a message on my phone from a couple of years ago where mother said she didn't give a fuck DP was having seizures.

Turns out my golden child brother hasn't visited, he also didn't visit on mothers birthday, so somethings going on there. Christmas with mother, father, brother, sil was challenging and parts continue to revolve in my mind.

Each night when I lay awake at night around 4am, it feels like I'm screaming at my childhood but there's a void surrounding my voice, and nobody can hear me.

Self-harm has ramped up since Christmas too :(

Oh buggrit @FrainBreeze. I couldn't just leave that post sat there hanging like that, cos I SHed for a long old time. Mother sounds like a real piece of work. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

I'm so sorry, @Frainbreeze. It must seem like one step forward and two steps back for you right now. Don't know what to say but am sending you a virtual handhold and the hope that last night, you might have had some respite from the 4am blues.

Thanks @MrsRussell & @SingingLily this is why I love these SH threads - no bullshit, no trolls, and a mega amount of empathy and insight.

I've been reading this thread a lot lately and so many things ring true for me.
I am still in contact but at the minute I am having to force myself to visit my parents. I only go for my ddads sake. My mum is playing favourites with her grandkids yet again and excluding DD. It really gets to me and I feel less and less for my mum the more she carries on. I keep thinking by the time she dies (she's mid 80's) I won't feel anything at all.
DD says she's not bothered about the favouritism but I know that she is. Luckily pil are amazing to DD, especially Mil.