"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Long time lurked on this thread...

I've just gone NC with my mum after an appalling Christmas and a massive argument where she said that my role in a recently ended (but Long term, loving, romantic) relationship was nothing more than a prostitute.

For the last few years (major health issues for mum) I've been 'not good enough' despite golden child and their spouse doing nothing for her. I'm a single parent whose kids never see their dad (his choice) and i work full time and have my own home to run. Golden child has a similar job, a spouse who is at home full time and has never does anything for my mum, yet I'm the one who got a 2 hour lecture last weekend about how I abandoned her after I was struggling so badly with the pressures from all angles that I ended up needing counselling. She is absorbed in her own misery and projects it to all around her. And now I'm nothing more than a prostitute.

So I'm done. She lives local to me which is going to be hard. I've had flying monkeys already but a few words from me have put any doubt out of their mind - and I know that she will live out her days as a miserable bitter old woman.

I get that @designerenvy - I recently saw some of NSDM's medical notes from 30 years back where it's noted that after she was discharged from hospital after alcoholic psychosis, that "husband had arrived drunk to collect her." And I work connected with child protection: I kept thinking, but there was a child in that house. The authorities knew that. How was that ever OK?.
A friend said to me though when I was really cross about it - yes. There was. And you grew through it and it went into making you who you are, and who you are is OK It cannit be changed, and you are enough, exactly as you are.

Mrs Russel that made me cry. Thank you, lovely words. Sorry you had it so tough.
Does your inner child ever stop hurting ?

I don't think so. It just hurts differently.

MrsRussell

re your comment:-
"If you are an only child, is it possible to be both the golden child and the scapegoat at the same time?"

Oh yes. Such roles are interchangeable within narcissistic family structures.

Yes Mrs Russell I think you're right. In my 20's I couldn't talk about my childhood without breaking into tears, in my 30s I was very very bitter and angry about it.
In my 40s ...it's like it was someone else's life and I feel detached almost but it still hurts when I make myself remember or sometimes it just catches me off guard....like if I see my dh being so good with my kids..... I feel a pang of helplessness for the child I was.
Sounds dramatic......I know 🙄..it happens less and less as I get older.
So, I understand what you're saying about the hurt changing and being different as you grow but it's always there xxx

Can I just ask if it's normal for toxic parents to try and compete with their children's in laws?

I don't have any IL's, but DB does and as I think I mentioned before he gets a long very well with them. They are I think, a 'normal' family in that they are emotionally healthy. Ive met them many times, they are lovely kind people who can have a laugh and a joke with each other without someone taking offence and becoming passive aggressivene or going into a sulk. Anyway, I digress.. DBs FIL is a trained chef and will often give DB and his DP tubs of food that he's made if there's any left over. Think meat, pies etc. Saves it going to waste obviously.

DM by her own admission hates cooking and sees it as a massive chore. She is pretty appalling it and only does it out of neccesity. However suddenly she's been doing exactly the same thing, tubs of food for DB and his DP. She's never ever done this before, but a few weeks ago very proudly presented DB and DP with Tupperware boxes of left over cooked vegetables. I can still the look of bemusment on his face. Since then it's been soup, stews and casseroles. Totally out of character and just odd.

Also the in laws gifted them a signifact ammount of money. DM then starts looking at ways she can match the gift. I mean I didn't realise it was a competition? Neither DB and DP expect any of this stuff, they are very self sufficient. Is this normal? Obviously there's nothing wrong with gift giving when it's out of kindness, but it seems like she's competing?

I'm not sure if it's relevant that my Uncle, DMs brother, was exceptionally close to his own in laws, much more so my grandparents?

Sounds like competitiveness alright.
Doe she give you left overs in little tubs? Is she trying to gift you some money, for some unknown reason?
If she's not, and its just your DB Nd his DP, then yes, she's trying to keep up with or outdo his in-laws
It's probably jealuosy thing or maybe she feels inferior as a DM, when she sees what the other side off the family do unconditionally ?

Manon

I would say this is competing behaviour from her; its an attempt to regain some power and control also so its not being done out of kindness either.

re your comment:-

"I'm not sure if it's relevant that my Uncle, DMs brother, was exceptionally close to his own in laws, much more so my grandparents?"

That is relevant also.

Lol, thought so! No, she never plates up food for me, though I have to be honest and say I'm not really bothered because I ate enough of her awful, badly cooked meals growing up!

DBs FIl doesn't just give food to them, he'll give it to his elderly neighbours or his other children and members of the extended family. He even sent over a huge slice of cheese pie to me once when he heard I liked it! (And delicious it was to!). It's just something he does if he makes too much of something and to avoid it going to waste.

I feel DM has ramped up her behaviour recently because she senses she's losing control of DB and I.

It all feels a bit sad and pathetic that she feels she needs to do stuff like this to get one over on and over family, who are just doing it out of kindness.

Very sad when someone can't just do something out of kindness 😢

@zebakrheum

The recurring word that kept going through my mind when I read of your experiences was "controlling". Your mother was very controlling. The high expectations coupled with the instances where she knocked your self-confidence at crucial times, such as your first job interview for example, and the way that you were measured against others and faintly found wanting. It's as if she wanted you to try to fly....with wings she'd clipped.

As for being made to take part in activities in which you had no interest and receiving gifts that you didn't want (oh yes, been there, done that - like the purple alarm clock that my parents gave me for Christmas when I was eleven because "they didn't know what to get me so this will have to do"). Well, if your mother was anything like mine, that was all about impressing other people rather than thinking about you or listening to you. Her favourite all-weather objection to anything I wanted to do was "but what would the neighbours think?" As if the neighbours ever had the time or inclination to care! And if they did, so what? Nonetheless, I felt like a cipher in my parents' life rather than a real person in my own right. They didn't understand me then. They don't understand me now.

Self-confidence is such a fragile thing, hard won but easily lost. So yes, zebakrheum, I would say you suffered abuse. There are no visible marks that you can point to, but the damage is there nonetheless.

I am sorry for the unhappiness and uncertainty of your childhood. But you are free now, free to be yourself. I wish you only the best.

@SimplySteve

I sense that you are going through a particularly hard time. Please don't give up on this thread. You bring far more to it than you think.

Thank you @SingingLily for responding and your kind wishes. It isn't easy letting go of some of these thoughts, and I feel oddly disloyal even allowing myself to comtemplate the past in the way I have recently. It is reassuring to have an independent view.

More WTAFery from mother. Social Services rang yesterday afternoon to ask if I'd consider mediation.
-you see how it's already been ramped up into poor vulnerable adult and bad neglectful daughter - again.
So anyway the answer is no, obvs.
But the WTAFery is this. When she "was found" she had apparently had this internal haemhorrage and been sat on the sofa for 3 days. Factual BS anyway, I'd spoken to her within the window of those "three days", but that's alcoholics for you - self-inflating confabulation.

It's not something I need an answer to, but it intrigues me. If you're alone, terrified, and physically ill, how can you sit next to a phone and not call 999? Or not pull your Lifeline?
It's an intellectual.curiosity rather than an actual question, like I say,but surely your instinct to survive would take over?

Mrs russell

Thats alcoholics for you. My gp fell down the stairs, broke every finger in her hand but just sat there for days. She looked like she,d been hit by a car. I think the alcohol numbs their brain to just not care. Obviously its an addiction but whats the underlying reasons. Whats she running away from to drink to oblivion.

Wish I didn't know @lifeisnotsimple but I do, I heard it every day growing up and it's how I know when she's took the top off the bottle now, even when she's presenting very convincingly to professionals as sober. I had a stand up flaming row with her key worker who told me "she drank because she's very lonely" and "if I went to see her more" - and this isn't about not knowing anything about alcoholics,it's because every day of that woman's life since The Thing happened, have been a calculated front to pretend The Thing didn't exist. Most people have no idea about The Thing and so they assume when she's making a heartbroken disclosure that it's legit. (Well, you would!) Five tears of counselling and her key worker didn't even know about The Thing

PS because you can't edit, it's not my Thing to talk about, so I just call it the that. Not trying to be over-dramatic :-)

Strange you saying her reasons were that shes lonely cos thats the same reasons my gp used to give. Despite having her whole family around her. It must be alcoholics go to answer for self denial and suppression. Again its that old stiff upper lip crap, must not talk about what happened or accept that it happened so lets drink to suppress the pain. What gets me the most though is there is no self awareness of their behaviour on others, or there is so they drink to suppress that to, and the cycle goes on and on. The affects on the family are devastating and destructive as the case with my mother, she lacks empathy and has her own mh probs as a result.

Hah! Yeah I think the "loneliness" excuse is actually a short form.of "I need to have all the things going on all the time because if I don't I have uninterrupted time to think about the Thing and I cannot stand to be honest with myself about that".
I'm the other way - I have too much empathy, with everyone, all the time. It doesn't mean I'm any nicer to them, it just means that I know I'm doing it

MrsRussell, I am so sorry for the constant dilemma you find yourself in and I offer this only in the hope that it might make some sense of what is going on with your mother but it's very very bleak so if it's not helpful at all, please just disregard.

It's something I recall that was once said to me by a seasoned nurse-turned-drug-worker about why those addicted to drugs so often failed to seek help for serious injuries or potentially life-threatening conditions. (I realise that your mother's problem is with alcohol and not drugs but it might throw some light). She told me, "They know, deep down at some basic level, that their addiction is killing them by inches but they've already accepted that risk and dismissed it as less important than the next fix. So anything that happens to them now is just part of their natural progression to the most obvious outcome and they stopped caring about that a long time ago".

It might explain things but as I say, it's very bleak and I'm sorry for that.

@StrongerThanIThought76

Your mother sounds every bit as lovely as mine so I really do sympathise. I live in a little village about six miles away from the city where M lives and have to pick my times to go shopping in town but I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must be for you. Well done for standing up for yourself and putting the flying monkeys straight.

Thanks @SingingLily .

I did delete my old account, going back to last year I "acquired" a stalker. I draw the line at this persons last communication. By deleting they can no longer PM me, and I intend to switch between usernames so my posts cannot be linked across subjects, and limit identifying details outside these threads.

So sorry peeps, guess you're just going to have to suffer me! (Steve).

Ahh I understand now and I'm glad you're back, @Frainbreeze. Illegitimi non carborundum and all that...Great user name, by the way

I feel deeply abandoned by my mother, who was never interested in any of her three children. My brother left home when he was 17. I was 13 at the time, my younger sister 10. From that point, I was my sister’s main carer. My parents would go away every weekend and leave me in charge. Similarly they would go on holiday and leave us. My sister didn’t get her GCSEs because my mum threw her out and she was sleeping on friends’ floors at that point.

My mum was very depressed while we were growing up. She was always packing her bags threatening to leave, or threatening to commit suicide. Her constant refrain was that we had ruined her life.

We had a lovely house. My stepdad was self employed and worked really hard so we had nice things. Not rich; but a ‘nice’ upbringing in a nice big detached semi in a nice cul de sac in a nice village. Mum has no idea how toxic it all was for us.

My brother and sister spent their twenties FURIOUS with her. NC and all. But they have mellowed now and accept her for who she is.

I really struggle, the older I get. I can’t bear to speak to her. My sister has confronted her about her behaviour and she defaults to martyr - “I’m the world’s worst mother I don’t know where I went wrong...” She moved to a foreign country a decade ago and spends all of her time bemoaning it, saying she’s missing her grandchildren growing up and wishes she was closer so she could help us. My sister asked if she could go live with them recently - their house is huge and they have a cottage in the grounds - and they said no. They have had chances to move back and also not done so.

I feel like even if it’s 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, that the sham of trying to maintain this happy family facade is exhausting. They don’t like us. They made that clear when we were kids. We don’t like them. Can it not all just stop? That’s how I feel.