"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Lifeisnotsimple it's hard for anyone to get an objective handle on what happened during their childhood but if these is dysfunction, then even more so. I always think, would I treat my own kids the same way as my mother treated me? Even before I acknowledged that my mother's treatment of me was abusive, I knew I never wanted her alone with my kids. It can sometimes be easier to do, and see, what's best when it involves your kids.

I would also ask, what happens when you try and enforce a boundary? Even something really small? Most of them go off their total nut, and employ methods like Soliloquy's mother. And that's clearly not normal. You can say, well, if it matters that much to her, why not give in? But everything matters to them like that. And things that are really none of their business. You start off by trying to accommodate and be the bigger person and they just take over.
And the final thing is... what is actually the awful thing that you are doing? Going NC is not the worst thing a person can do to you by a long long way. They will say oh but because I love you so much it hurts me so much more not to see you. Hmm... hurts so much, but not enough that you would make the slightest effort to behave better though eh? There's a saying, you don't need to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. They want us to be in contact, but they want us to be compliant with their every whim, and ready to be used as a verbal punchbag whenever they're unhappy and need someone to blame it on. That's not love.

A lot of this is about boundaries, and how people who grew up in dysfunctional families don't know where people's responsibilities to each other start and end. I can recommend the Captain Awkward website (can't link sorry, am on mobile at bloody soft play) which is a sort of agony aunt page for (mostly) small-scale problems with relationships of all sorts. I find Captain Awkward is excellent at pointing out where people are putting in too much work and it feels like a breath of fresh air (and it's not about dysfunctional families, or not primarily anyway).

Hi Steve! Waves

https://captainawkward.com/

I'm on mobile at the bloody supermarket. Having fun toomuch? Are you building something nice?

Off to supermarket 2!

Thanks Steve! Whenever I go away from the page to try and check a link, when I come back it reloads minus my draft comment. Once I was very smart and copied the text before I went, then looked up the website I wanted, and then went and copied the address. Dog!

Soft play is the seventh circle of hell as usual. At least, because I went to a really tough school I'm used to sitting reading with deafening noise all around me They also serve wine, but it's a slippery slope...

Anyone else feel like they aren’t a whole person due to what they experienced in their childhood? I feel like I have lost a part of myself. At the end of primary school to the beginning of secondary school I showed a knack for drawing and painting. But creative activities were never allowed at home so I never really took those skills any further. Now I’m working in a very technical and formulaic job when I wish I could be doing something with a bit more personal flair, I just don’t have the skills or experience. My colleagues always says I am very funny and sociable when I’m drunk and why don’t I let it out more? I really don’t even know how to make it come out. Being punched and screamed at nearly every day for talking at the wrong time or saying the wrong thing will do that to you. I suffered from severe social anxiety as a teenager and it was only after seeing a free counsellor through my university that I began to recover and the process is ongoing. Maybe one day I will get there, but I just wish I could be that confident and outgoing person that currently only my closest friends get to see.

Sorry for the pity-party post. I have plenty of good days where I feel like I should be proud of myself for surviving but I’m feeling almost a mourning for the mother and childhood I wished I had today.

Now at Tesco, supermarket number 3...

There seems to be a trend developing recently here. Sharing our horrific experiences and searching for answers isn't a pity party. Growing up in a toxic environ is something we cannot control. Everyone posting should feel empowered they are looking to say a massive fuck you to those who've caused us substantial, long-lasting pain.

I think... if we don't have compassion for ourselves, who will have compassion for us? We're all grown-ass adults with shitty families. We need to look after ourselves. And we are allowed to try and enjoy our lives and be happy and hope and plan for better things. We don't always have to be thinking in terms of our usefulness, of whether we are fulfilling our roles as good parents or children.or workers or whatever. We are allowed to simply be. That is damned hard for people like us, the ability to just be present with ourselves and accept ourselves was the first thing we had taken from us by our parents. We deserve to spend the time and effort that we do, fixing that. God if everyone would work on themselves his way the world would be a lot better place.

Toomuchtooold yes i see it as dysfunctional and their behaviour as wrong. I suppose even though i know nc was such a relief for me, ive lost the trust in my own judgement by overthinking and perhaps trying to find something to say oh thats why you were like that and we can fix it and we will be happy like others, even though she would never acknowledge there was anything wrong. Like im trying to save her.

Mspeach ive grieved all my life for a mother i never had, looking at other kids mothers and wishing i could live there. My mother used to say oh u were a confident child til u were 6 i dont know what happened to u, but i think that is the same time as i started to wear glasses and she called me ugly. I can remember that day it was infront of all my family, no one said anything and that sealed the deal, i thought i must be no one has said anything otherwise, my dad was there. Knocked my confidence in one sentence. As a child you dont know the significance of it. Every time i had to get up in church to resite id stand there and cry. She hated that. My mother always wanted to be something different and i hate it when people say you should be this or that. Im me deal with it. Its never to late to take up arts etc

@SimplySteve totally. The counsellor said to me, you are the way you are because you had to be that way to survive. And she was totally right. I feel almost behind in my “development”- like I’m still a teenager learning to navigate the world sometimes! Although probably more worldly in other ways due to those past experiences. It’s a funny thing.

@Lifeisnotsimple oh that’s awful. Of course we know as adults looks shouldn’t matter and all that but I remember how feeling ugly made me feel so worthless as a teenager. And of course looking back I wasn’t ugly at all, but I just wish somebody had been there to tell me all those things I wasn’t the ideal daughter (tomboy forced into dance classes I hated!) and my sister was, total golden child, funnily enough I ended up doing really well academically and have a fairly decent career now. My sister on the other hand went completely off the deep end and is only just recovering. My mother thinks it’s all down to her how I ended up doing so well, and it wasn’t in spite of her at all

I think that being knocked down repeatedly through childhood, where, let's face it - much of our lives is conceived in those 16 years - has horrific, life-lasting ramifications. Life - you've already alluded to overthinking and looking for a plausible reason for the adults behaviour.

It's really easy to lie here and type that, yes our self-worth, self-belief and other important self-developmental techniques take so much damage they are in the gutter, and if the abuse continues over a chronic period it intrinsically affects the way our lives map out.

We need to be able to look within, and realise that everything that happened wasn't our fault, spending countless hours replaying incidents in our minds, fervently looking for a reason to absolve our abusers of their stinging, destructive acts.

Yet it's not simple is it? There are so many people who've suffered as a result of child abuse, and that's just looking at it in a linear way; once you add misogyny, narcissism, racism, homophobia into the equation all bets are truly off and you've really been dealt an incredibly shitty hand.

Despite this though, I look at my narcissistic mother, but I'm then torn when I look at my father, reason being mother was the dominant party, the one who would spark the catalyst anew to re-commence her campaign of hate? My father, whilst never discriminating against me directly would just do fuck all and let mother continue her campaign of "let's fuck Steve up". I mean, I was born on a shit day because it meant mother missed her Christmas dinner, and I also have fucked up every fucking Christmas because I'm Male. Things that get repeated every fucking year. With that shifty going in her eye, "oh I'm only joking". Like, fuck off joking. You don't pull shit like this for over 30 fucking years as a JOKE. Grrr.

Definitely never too late to push into something that you truly love either. The only major downside is age in terms of pushing something as a career. I was pushed down a set route through high school (straight A's were never enough I was told, needed to work harder as I was "embarrassing the family", as she crowed over neighbours waving my report card), then pushed into a direction I had little passion for. Due to disability setting in, there's been a couple of paths that if I could go back down I would change, I'm unable to pursue my dreams which just builds more resentment for the control that was exerted upon my life.

Heh. Got a bit carried away there.

Oh and then there's the privacy aspect, where both parents and my brother would simply barge into my bedroom, with the adage being "it's our house". Obviously growing up I had some sexual experiences, and even had a period of feeling bisexual after I was raped. (My extended family are misogynistic, narcissistic, homophobic and racist). Having no privacy when growing up was sheer hell. Having to conceal my sexuality because of the fear of being disowned.

When things settled and I DP home (female), my mother's first comment to me, in front of her, was "be careful what you're doing she probably has something". It's a wonder she didn't turn round and walk out. I think it all pointed back to control, the need to be in complete control of my life.

It was a trip to Ibiza, I was 20 that really opened my eyes, and really the years between 20-30 helped me pull some control back, to find some things I was truly passionate about, that I could use as an "out", to dispel some of the burning frustration and anger, only then I had no idea why I was feeling like that.

Then disability became both mine and DPs master and it's been a real struggle this past eight years.

And I've no idea why I'm still typing so I'm hitting post and shutting up!

Do you know Steve it's coming up on 10 years since my dad died, and although I loved him to bits I can't put my hand on my heart and say I wish he was still here. He had Alzheimer's so that complicates things, but he also had another illness and that was the mental illness stemming from his shitty, shitty childhood (he didn't tell me everything but what he did tell me, my granda was probably a psychopath) that caused him to allow my mother to abuse him for 40 years. I do believe he was a victim of my mother's, I think there's a continuum of blame/responsibility, I don't think my dad ever had a chance to get away. But yeah, I.miss him, but how shit would it be now with me with the kids, and my dad would have been an awesome granda, but she would have been there as well. I tell myself I would have managed her, that me and DH would have done it between us the way we did when my dad was alive - we used to take my dad away hillwalking with us and the three of us would get pissed up and my dad would just vent and vent about my mum. But he would never leave. Aargh, it's such a mess. I wish I could just miss him and that would be it.

Last bit. It's taken many years to try to wrest some power, some control back, and it's only this past two or three years the tides begun to turn. The scars on my arm are a poignant reminder to me that it's ME who calls MY shots, but realistically it's not that simple. Yet I'm not ashamed of my scars and I have almost belligerently had them on display, almost wanting someone to comment - to instill the belief I have control.

I've achieved some decent things, not many that mean a shit really, but from where I was at 16 I did ok until disability kicked in. I think that's what's really difficult, fighting the original battle then getting this on top of it, you feel like you're submerged in water with your nose just poking out to breathe, where sink or swim is an appropriate analogy.

Anyway, thank you toomuch, straw, peachh and life. You've done me a massive service today.

This is the thread for me. I have lost count of the amount of times my parents have dismissed my feelings, said I'm lying about the past, or said 'you could have had it a lot worse'.

As one of four sublings, I was continually blamed for everything, and treated much more harshly than the rest. As a result, my siblings also saw me as the 'problem' in the family as that's what my parents have conditioned them to believe.

Whenever I was humiliated by my parents or made upset by them, it would be funny to the rest of them, as they'd think I deserved it. My contact with them all is very limited today because of it. There are very few people on the outside who saw what was really going on, only a couple of people in my extended family know and understand what it's been like for me. My dad has a respectable job so no one would guess he'd been emotionally abusive/ bordering on neglectful to one of his daughters. I refuse to believe I deserved to be treated the way I was, considering I was a child and didn't do anything dreadful.

Hey everyone, my first time posting here but reading through this thread I can recognise the similarities with my Narc Mum. We're recently back to no contact (again!). She's back to pushing boundaries trying to get me to spend more time with her than I'm already doing which was too much for me as it was. Shes always hinting for me to buy her better presents than everybody else ( which tbh i had been doing and nothings ever good enough anyway so whats the point?! and if I ever buy myself anything she wants the same or better, asks for it or goes and buys near identical to it. typical narc behaviour!) and also she had been laying on the comparison's far far too much lately.
Basically I'm not entertaining her or doing enough for her at the minute so she was becoming unstickable so I pulled her up on it as well as a little porky pie of lie she had been saying about another relative and she called me paranoid and that's where it kicked off. Whoever doesn't go along with her demands are paranoid, unstable crazy troublemakers more or less depending on who her argument is with at the time. The older she gets the less there is to pick on and of the people who are left, she likes to keep little sets of family members separate. My Mum brought her kids up to be strangers living in the same house more or less and mistrustful of each other and of course she has a golden child but obviously its not me as I'm writing this!

I meant to write more expensive presents than the others not better!

Gosh steve youve reminded me of the serious lack of boundaries in the house, yes my bedroom was hers not mine, no posters allowed cos it would ruin the walls lol. Come in if she liked etc. Her house her rules. Hygiene issues she rationed female products. No antiperspirants no razors. I would save my 10p each week from my nan to by a 1 quid pack of razors etc. If i asked, no but my brother got bought some. That makes me really angry.
I always thought my father was just an innocent bystander but learned hes an enabler with zero compassion. No compassion for the loss of my daughter and told me he likes being with golden child cos hes not nuts says the man who was sectioned under the mental health act when i was 7. Its like they have short memories you would think he could be sympathetic when i was having a breakdown cos hed been there but no.

I think toomuchtooold and yourself are right, we do deserve to be happy, im hypercritical of myself and i need to lighten up. Stop looking back, im free now and i can do what the hell i like within reason lol and i can tell that little mother in my head to do one.

Hola @fleececloud

I have lost count of the amount of times my parents have dismissed my feelings, said I'm lying about the past

Oh yes, I love this one, do you get the line that your memory must be wrong too as that's not what happened?

As one of four sublings, I was continually blamed for everything, and treated much more harshly than the rest. As a result, my siblings also saw me as the 'problem' in the family as that's what my parents have conditioned them to believe.

I only have one (older) sibling but I found this exact same dynamic. That sibling was the golden child and myself the scapegoat. Where everything I ever did was wrong or not good enough whereas my sibling could do whatever the fuck he wanted with no repercussions. I noticed too that my brother jumped on the abuse bandwagon, literally being encouraged by my narc bitch mother, with father doing fuck all to stop it. It was hell for me with just one, I cannot imagine how horrible things must have been for you.

Whenever I was humiliated by my parents or made upset by them, it would be funny to the rest of them, as they'd think I deserved it. My contact with them all is very limited today because of it. There are very few people on the outside who saw what was really going on, only a couple of people in my extended family know and understand what it's been like for me. My dad has a respectable job so no one would guess he'd been emotionally abusive/ bordering on neglectful to one of his daughters. I refuse to believe I deserved to be treated the way I was, considering I was a child and didn't do anything dreadful.

You didn't deserve it. None of it. Your father having a respectable job is/was a great cover. I recently made the mistake of asking an aunt what "life was like" with me growing up. I got a load of bullshit fired at me, which stung but also made me realise that the only people who truly know what went on was me, parents and brother; and likely the same in your situation. The professional, family man who everybody gets along with. It's a great cover.

Why did none of the people on the outside do nothing to alleviate the pain and suffering you were experiencing? That's truly shit.

Unfortunately, our parents shape so much of our destiny, but then there are societal expectations around the great mum, loving dad, playful siblings that, to this day, are still mooted. Utter bullshit. You cannot compartmentalise someone's childhood like that.

I'm so sorry for your experiences.

@toomuchtooold

I loved him to bits I can't put my hand on my heart and say I wish he was still here

10 years? I'm so sorry.

This point is where my emotions fly all over the place. I know that I will miss dad, and I love him so much despite his enabling supportive role. It's just so tough and I cannot equalise the feelings. This is what's so hard of going "home", mother in her bedroom, the "overdose" room, father downstairs.

The sheer nostalgia that hits me entering different rooms there, hard hitting feelings, good things but mainly bad. DD (19) uses my old bedroom and I have to be fair, it's as though my father has been a fabulous grandfather to her... almost as though he's seen what I went through and this was his opportunity to "put things right". It's a conversation I need to have but the prospective answers scare the living hell out of me.

Brother was meant to be the son who gave them a girl, oh how I enjoyed ringing them when I left the operating theatre. The girl they'd always wanted, that I, their victimised, abused son had birthed. Did I gloat? Fuck yes.

I now need to send mother Leave A Trace by Chvrches. I'm in a bit of an antagonistic mood tbh. The texts will be most entertaining. When I'm able to "protect" myself into "don't give a fuck" mode it's actually a little fun winding her up. Bitch.

Just to steal something .

Can I just say that you are all fucking fabulous today? You are. All of you.

Children however, seem programmed to love their parents anyway no matter how abusive they are.

It is not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

Women like your mother Steve cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are either discarded (seen that scenario many times on other parts of this board with regards to the narcissistic mother) or are as narcissistic as they are. The men do tend to throw their kids under the bus, such are really her hatchet man here and they cannot be relied upon either.

People like my inlaws and to a lesser extent my parents (they are the epitome of unsupportive/disinterested really and I have felt let down so many times) have taught me valuable lessons in how not to behave.

Moana - stay no contact with your mother. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

Seems our upbringings have several similarities @Lifeisnotsimple . Mother was sectioned when I was young, and more than once. Kinda scary when your mother is brandishing a carving knife and shreds an adjoining curtain. My heartfelt sympathies about your daughter

Oh and @Lifeisnotsimple my therapist told me her foremost thoughts were "beside every narcissist is an, often passive, enabler".

Sorry Attila, I've kinda been spamming!

When they deny the past- are they lying or just totally delusional about what really happened? I really don’t know.

Oh i think they know ms peach but have trouble with accountability.