"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

thisisthelaststraw do you find that the stage of 'not knowing whats going on/waiting for the shit to hit the fan* the worst?
(Personally) I think the some of the most helpfu l things I've found is reading other's stories. Knowing I'm not alone, that its not 'in my head'... and there's something reassuring about the anonymity of the internet in a way that nobody is saying things out of bias, or because they know me. If that makes sense.
Oh god, well I made my mind up last night I think! So this morning I sent her an email saying 'you need to collect your stuff before the end of Feb. You can collect it any weekend, but txt me or dh to let us know and we'll have it ready.' I THINJ THATS FAIR, RIGHT?!
anyways, 12 missed calls (I dont do well on phones, and also I'm trying to keep this out of kids business). Missed call on dh phone. C ouple of emai ls asking if its a joke, am i serious. I leave all of these because I 've made myself clear.
She txts again asking 'so what have I done'. So i reply with something along the lines of 'your behaviour over Christmas was disgusting and I will not let you treat me that way. I will not let you disrespect my family or my home'.
Dont hear anything.
Suddenyl there's a loud hammering on window and guess whos there?!
The next b it is kind of a blur, but she stood tall and authoritative and said 'right, what is going on' and went to step into my house and i blocked her way and said NO, YOU ARE NOT ENTERING MY HOME. Basically told her she's not coming in, her behaviour was disgusting, she denied hurting the kids. Denied chucking laptop. Denied screaming expletives in the house and garden when she was raging. She then started crying, and I have NEVER seen her cry! She was saying she hasn't done anything, kept repeatjng it. Shhe then started calling the kids, beconing them to her, which I put a stop to. She started shouting 'Im sorry!'. She then said shes always helped me with money (she throws money at people without u asking for it, in effect buy ing me). Whhen i said money has nothing to do with it, its everythjng else she asked for examples. The one I bothered to give her was when I gave birth to my eldest ; i was rushed through for a n emergency secti on and she went fucking bat shit, swearing at drs and staff, mumbling, going mad because MY HUSBAND WAS GOING IN TO SURGERY WITH ME AND NOT HER. she then put vile disgusting things on fb afterwards. AnywY, brought this up today and at it's mention, the tears suddenly STOPPED (very strange), and she said 'how do you think I felt? Whhat do you think i was going through'?! I mean, AIBU here or what?!
She then said she was suicidal when she was staying with us, and she was going go kill herself last week. she then said there's nothing wrong with her, its m e. She also said she has depression. Then she left blaming everything on my husband BECAUSE HES A MASTER MANIPULATOR!!

So yeah. Couple of shit txt afterwards; she now remembers hurting my daughter and the laptop (funny how memory works right?), Both accidents, and she was depressed, and homeless. Parting comment of 'try not to slag me off too much to the kids.'

Sorry for long post guys.

Solliloquy

Its not you or your H, its your mother. Well done for standing firm against her and her varied manipulations. She is a master manipulator, not you people. And she contradicts herself and rewrites history to suit her own ends.

Your mother is absolutely toxic and is disordered of thinking to say the very least. She really does need to be out of your everyday life and I would further block all her means of contacting you.

@Solliloquy you did so well! I was grinding my teeth reading that post.

Using all the tactics one after the other to see which would win the battle for her. Reminded me of something I couldn’t quite put my finger on for a minute but I know what it is.. have you seen Terminator 2? There’s a scene at the end where the ‘bad’ terminator has fallen into molten metal and is in its death throes. Throughout its lifespan it has been able to morph into the people its killed and as it ‘dies’ (its not human) it morphs rapidly from one body form to the next and screeches. I know that sounds awful and probably weird but that’s how I see my mother when she’s cornered and knows the game is up. She changes, sometimes from one sentence to the next depending on what I say.

AttilaTheMeerkat, thanks, and i know right?! But i still want to know - WHEN IS SHE GONNA COLLECT HER CRAP?! lol.
Jesus Christ, just checked ny phone and missed calls and txt from her already. Gah.
You know how the self-help internet people's always say 'listen t o your body, what is it telljng you' and you think (me anyway) that its all a bit hippyish and naah? They've totally proved me wrong, because after the confrontation was the first time I felt calm in a week. I had really high blood pressure, palpitations etc and now its gone! Also lost nearly a stone in weight since monday. Did anyone else notice the 'physical changes' in themselves?

thisisthelaststraw YES! i know what you mean! It's so transparent once you know what to expect.
How are you feeling now?

Reading your post soliloquy and i could have written her response word for word how strange. it was an oscar performance eh! Oh the croc tears then switching off immediately thats the scariest and the look in the eye. Its like your looking at a psychopath/actor. You were super brave. Id probably send another text now saying so what date are we looking at to collect the stuff, show you mean business. See its your home and not hers to dump on or to treat u like dirt. Strange how shes on holiday but when your not playing ball shes at ur home in mins. The more you stand up for yourself the more you see this performance. Like when i was at my babies funeral and shes crying croc tears cos when she got me on my own shes nasty as hell. Switches like a light. Fake fake fake. Genuine people dont do shit like that. Watch now for the campaign of look at me im a victim, my own daughter cant even be bothered to help me in my hour of need. How could she be so cruel when im effectively homeless. Others will be oh poor her! Im surprised your nan hasnt been on the phone but if she does say oh i can sent the stuff there then can i. Well done to you this is the start of the new you. Dont be hard on jr self if u wobble cos this stuff messes with your emotions. Talk to dh and make a plan for your next move forward. If you need to cry just cry let it all out, you only need to be strong infront of her and to have your emotional guard up.

Can I just say that you are all fucking fabulous today? You are. All of you.

I think you saw and took the full force of your mother's narcissistic rage. Having seen one of those myself they are indeed a sight to behold (my MILs guard was well and truly down that day, its a side of her that my darling H has never really seen). But I know the truth here re her and that sets you free too.

Honestly Solliloquy I would block your mother from contacting you via your mobile phone and landline. This woman will never respect any boundary you care to set her and will ride roughshod through that with a coach and horses.

If you did send her one more text before blocking I would state that she has 72 hours in which to collect her belongings otherwise it will all be disposed of. There will be no further correspondence entered into.

I’ve seen it, the rage, it’s indescribable. It’s worth reading up on ‘extinction burst’ to sort of prepare yourself emotionally.

If you know what might be coming, it can be easier to deal with. If not at the time at least for afterwards.

I’m in awe soll you’ve done so bloody well.

I’m okay @Solliloquy. How are you? Agree with blocking her number now so she can’t get to you.

Soliloquy change a couple of details and that's pretty much what my mother did. They are all exactly the same.

Why is this shite so hard. I'll apologise now for the profanity.

Childhood emotional abuse, rape. Dx PTSD, cPTSD, anxiety, depression.

Hate men, distrust women. Been very low contact for a couple of years now, and I've resisted visiting as much as I can, including Christmas (not gone last two years). My birthday is over the same period too.

I was essentially bullied into going this time. Phone messages left, brother messaging me and telling me that I'm breaking the family apart, and DP can't comprehend the significant, substantial damage 17 years of emotional abuse has done, or how my rape affected me, and thinks I should suck it up and spend time with them.

So I went, had to go to mothers room to see her (health issues, rarely out of bed), in the room where she attempted suicide at least twice. It's really fucking fun going into a room when your mothers taken a fuckton of pills and boxes are everywhere. So that was a nice trigger. THEN she hands me my Christmas present and this is where the fun starts.

Photo albums with about 175 photos of my childhood, DS and DD. Photos where I'm laughing, smiling and looking content and happy with life. This is the mindfuck. Parents are in their 70s, the indication being spending more time with them all, and they "love" me.

So I really don't know how to comprehend this. Happy, but abusive childhood? Have I perceived things incorrectly? DP has warned me of cutting them off, saying I will regret it when they're gone. Fathers birthday soon too.

Thanks for letting me rant!

Hi, how is everyone today?

Found it interesting to read about the lack of female friends. I’ve been the same. Had some female friends but no real, close ones. I always got on better within a male group too. I wonder what that’s all about.

Yesterday was horrible. I spent most of it on Mumsnet trying to distract myself but ultimately there was little escape and I was down most of the day. Spoke to my brother who had sent her a message. He then said “I just feel she’s human at the end of the day and has feelings too”. I felt it was a little jab at me for not contacting her on her birthday but I think it’s more likely I was feeling guilty anyway and it stung.

Dd Text her too. She text back “thank you DD x”

Aunt text me last night re Dad. Nice text. No mention of mum.

Not sure about the counselling. I have never been able to badmouth mum. That’s what counselling has always felt like. “Let’s take a look at your relationship with your mother”. “No, lets not. She was a good mum. She had a hard life”.

It’s also always felt a bit like a pity party. I feel so uncomfortable saying something hurt me because 1) it was usually my mother and 2) I feel like I may as well be saying “aw poor me, didn’t I have it hard” and that feels all kinds of wrong.

Still haven’t managed to get Susan Forwards book. Just started listing to Daughter Detox by Peg Streep on audible.

Back on nights tonight in work so going to go back to sleep for a while.

Hope you all have a great day.

Hi Steve, took me so long to post my own I hadn’t realised the thread was updated. Didn’t mean it to appear I had ignored your post.

I’m new to this thread Steve so not sure if the other posters know more of your back story. Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’ve had such horrible things happen to you.
I understand the inner conflict too.

Unfortunately, being in the midst of going NC and trying to educate myself on it all, I’m not great with advice. I hope some of the other fantastic posters will be along soon.

Haha I know what you mean, once I get going on a post on the SH threads everything turns into a thesis!

I shall go read your post now :)

I’m here for a chat if you’d like

Laststraw same here im not a lets pity me person either and i think im not so special everyone has a hard life. I was actually thinking last night if there are loads of people on internet talking about the same problem, is it a generation thing and maybe she was just doing her best and ive been harsh on her. Ive been to counselling and they said well mum did have an alcoholic mother so she had issues of her own and there i am thinking im a selfish person and look what ive done by going nc. How could i do that to a person who was trying their best no ones perfect. I look at my own son and think will he see me the same in yrs to come. My heads a wash.

Steve im sorry for what you have been through, life is so hard. What is going on in their heads, are they so out of touch with their emotions that they are blinded. Mental health is so complex. Have you had counselling for the rape? I dont pay attention to other family members feelings of what they want cos often its just to make their life easy and they havent got to cope with your brain telling you all sorts.

Again i find it difficult to see emotional abuse as abuse. If someone asks me was i abused id say hell no. I just have a difficulty getting along with my family.

Yeah I've been writing essays on these threads for a while now. While I read your post I wanted to recommend a book to you before I forget. It's called Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa. Can get it as an ebook (kindle or iBooks) or physical copy.

Back to reading :)

No counselling for the rape, no.

Again i find it difficult to see emotional abuse as abuse.

Reading this I actually felt my heart speeding up in anger! I'd be very interested to have a long conversation about it.

1. Mother treats one child as the scapegoat who can do no right yet leeches on to any achievements, one as the golden child who's on a constant pedestal.

2. (This one is deeply personal, and hugely outing). Mother tells child they were born at the wrong time, and that they should have been a girl.

3. Mother focuses personal attacks at one child, leaves them a note signed by Mother's name, note castigating the child.

Could write a load, but what do you think of those scenarios and how would you classify them?

Thats the problem steve, those incidents you say, they are outwardly and strong examples of abuse. But what about if its done subtley. Like praising the older bother for being academic, the younger for being sporty, oh but why cant you be like them or like another little girl down the road. You know dm has empathy for everyone but you and your problems. When you challenge and its you your sensitive or barmy to think like that. Id say maybe i am but its how i feel andwhy cant you accept me the way i am. Why do i have to be someone else in order for you to love me, she laughs and say of course i love you you are nuts or angry how could you think like that all ive done for you. That isnt abuse!

Sorry life I just read my post back, it was a bit aggressive. So sorry

Dont be sorry steve there was me thinking id been a bit flippant. What im saying is the term abuse means different things to different people. When i think of abuse i think physical straight away. Im not saying emotional abuse is not abuse its just for me i find it hard to accept ive been emotionally abused. I cant or wont believe it, yet here i am with stories very similar to everyone else. Ive stopped reading books about it cos i dont trust them, yes i have extreme trust issues. What if they are planting things in your head that are not real.

Grr I need to pop out it seems, so I'll be back later to post properly, but I agree that if you say to someone that you were abused it's likely a huge majority will think physical, partly down to how the term domestic violence has been described.

Trust issues, yeah I can totally relate. I had an op in 2016 (appendicectomy) and the anaesthetist was male. That was fun.... heart rate when I came round was 160+ and with irregular heartbeat. Op in 2017 with female anaesthetic, well I didn't need 30 mins to allow the propofol to be infused, still had the tachy and atrial fibrillation though.

I'm seeing a new (Male) dentist on Weds, I have no idea how I'm going to cope with that, even thinking about it starts a panic attack!

Thanks for posting too, these threads are brilliant, it's just so disheartening the subject matter. Back later :) (not forgotten you straw)

Cheers steve speak later