"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi, I would like to join.
I have browsed through this thread a few times as I've been through an incredible awakening, penny dropping experience with my family.
I have felt incredibly alone my whole life even though I have a wonderful husband and children.
In a nutshell I couldn't understand why whenever I saw my DM I always felt a huge overwhelming sense of guilt later. I realised I felt guilty about my negative feelings towards my family. I harboured grudges for things in my childhood that upset me and whenever I've ever tried to talk about things I've been told also that my memory isn't right or I've dreamt things. I thought for a while that I was losing my mind.
Not long ago I realised it was highly likely I was on the autistic spectrum and chose to see a phycologist. Before my assessment I did a lot of soul searching into my past to try and work out if my 'issues' were stemming from childhood problems or if I was in fact born with issues that my parents did not help me with. The eye opening moment was reading about the narcissist parent and this was like a light bulb moment.
After seeing the phycologist and being told I was almost definitely on the spectrum it took me some time to be able to tell my mother. I was afraid of her response. When I finally did we spent about an hour with her telling me about her childhood and how she was probably on the spectrum. When I said that I needed to talk about my childhood and things I found difficult, she got very angry. She got defensive over what I found difficult and took this as if I was blaming her. I do have communication difficulties but it's very hard to work out what is part of an asd and what is part of dysfunction upbringing.
I find that I'm happier when not communicating with my DM but always harbour the feeling of guilt that I'm not contacting her. I feel an overwhelming feeling that things are always my fault and need reassurance from my DH that I'm not being horrible as I'm made to feel.
One thing I will say though is that I am very in tune with the emotions and needs
of my own DC who I love with all my heart.
Sometimes my DM will do or act in such a nice way that I feel so ungrateful and unworthy if that makes sense.

Seems I fell asleep...

When they deny the past- are they lying or just totally delusional about what really happened? I really don’t know.

Hmm. I've been watching the cursor flashing for half an hour trying to determine my feelings, running over various incidents in my mind. I think life makes a good point, in the last 18 months I raised a question about something that I knew was 110% accurate with mother. Zero accountability, zero sadness, zero fucks given.

I've struggled for years of accepting that not only were they complicit, not only were they the ones calling the shots, they actively sought to tell me it was I that was wrong.

Yet I don't know. For if I believe they are lying then it causes uncomfortable emotions to rise up, delusional? Well, not both parents AND egging on a sibling, surely. The one thing, the very important facet I realised after my aunt smacked me down recently was that everything was neatly contained in the box of our house. And as much as it causes a massive wrench of emotion. I was going to say that the agenda of abuse was an act requiring active persecution, but if I admit that to myself then I have to contend with more emotion. Sorry, rambling...

Someone who writes far better than I will be along spring, loads, in fact most, of what you write is straight out of a narcissists manual - the guilt that you feel, the anger that erupted when you questioned your mother, no doubt followed by denial. When you told her you were on the spectrum it sounds like there was a distinct lack of empathy. That's another distinctive narc trait.

Sometimes my DM will do or act in such a nice way that I feel so ungrateful and unworthy if that makes sense.

Yes, for her own devices and gains. For whatever positive can be pulled from it, even knowing she has you dangling on the end of a phone line. That you feel these emotions as a result sadly just confirms things.

I think they do know, but part of their make up is that they are never wrong, so you often get replies stemming from saying it didn't happen at all, it didn't happen that way and it wasn't that bad right through to it was your fault they did it and you did something to deserve it. It's often followed by tears and/or lashing out. When mine does it she reminds me of a child being caught with a crayon and a wall full of scribble doing all she can to get out of it being her fault, only it's no way cute.

No-one really likes to be wrong, or to be told that they've fucked up but the difference is that most people will at some point from instantly to eventually see it from the other persons point of view, they can't because it's only ever all about them. I think that that's the root of why you can't ever have a relationship with these people, unless you agree with everything they say, give them everything they want and bend to their ever changing wants and whims, but if you do that what sort of relationship is it and are you even you anymore?

Moana19 i can totally relate to the sibling strangers. I see my brother once a yr for an hour max. Its strange i know all about his life but conversation is strained it does just flow. I dont feel easy around him. Other brother nc.

Nora you are right in your analogy. When i used to bring up the truth my mothers face would give the game away. Then the back peddling began instead of an honest conversation with an adult.

Spring all i can say is ur on the right forum. We have all experienced what you have written and its not nice.

Steve can i just mention (hope you dont think im stepping over the line). In your posts yr mentioning your disability and how you did achieve yrs ago but please dont do yourself down. On whose scale are we measuring achievement. Yours or your parents. You are on here helping others make sense of the crappy lifes we,ve experienced. In my book thats free therapy. Something thats not readily available and something of an acheivement.

@springhappy I hear you.
We are RAISED to feel the guilt.

Thank you everybody, it's nice to feel understood by others who have been through a similar upbringing and can relate. it changes your whole perspective once you realise what's actually happened. Wishing you all a happy Sunday

springhappy

Its not you, its your mother. She trained you from an early age to serve her at your overall expense putting your own needs last. I would read up further on gaslighting because it appears you have been well and truly gaslighted by your mother. The state of FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) you are currently in is typical as well.

What you write of is typical of what can and does happen in narcissistic family structures. I would also have a read of the website entitled "daughters of narcissistic mothers".

You may also want to contact the Lorna Wing Centre re ASD; they could be more helpful to you as they also help adults www.autism.org.uk/services/diagnosis/about.aspx

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat that is very helpful. I have done quite a bit of reading and feel a huge sense of reassurance that it wasn't 'my doing' so to speak.
I have a referral in place now for a formal diagnosis. Though when the time comes I don't plan to share the outcome as I believe the conversation will change from almost denial of any childhood issues to how her life was hard raising me. It will be helpful for my own self acceptance though and much needed support. I can see how as children we can be moulded into such obedient little beings by careful manipulation and control. Yes gaslighting I think is what actually eventually opened my eyes and got me reading the right material.

Hi all. So narcisstic M was taken off all SM and blocked on her phone. I am not very tech savvy so assumed that was it. I was clearing some space in my phone the other and noticed a thread called 'blocked messages'. She's carrying on texting me as if nothing ever happened!
Any idea how I block it properly or is it best to just ask the phone company for a new number?

how you did achieve yrs ago but please dont do yourself down. On whose scale are we measuring achievement. Yours or your parents.

Course I don't, life. Eek, I read your message hours ago and finally convinced myself to answer. Whose scale? Both. I know that's overly simplistic, there's absolutely zero question my parents are responsible for my thinking nothing is good enough. The report cards, the concerts, own business, etc etc, always criticised as not good enough.

As for my own scale, admittedly pre-disability there's times I took the easy option and didn't work as hard as I should have done, exacerbated by DPs own problems escalating during DDs pregnancy. Seeing someone in a coma, that you have the power and ability to resolve, when you're 21 is fucking scary, and she's needed daily support ever since. Hindsight's a wonderful thing, even more so now when even driving to the supermarket is a struggle. I still have my fire to push, it's I need to equalise in my own mind what is feasible given my, and DPs, fragile state.

Just a massive mindfuck really. There's things I'm happy with that feel tainted from my childhood and in adulthood there are things I guess I should be happy, or at peace, with, but I'm just...not? My strongest tech achievement, not sure details are important but to do with books, is just a meh when I think back. As though I have no pride in anything I've done.

Think she's made it perfectly clear what she thinks, Mary. I'd get a new number, you just don't need the temptation of seeing what she's writing.

Steve yeah i understand what ur saying, its interesting the notion of feeling happy with oneself. I too never feel completely happy with any of my achievements suppose we are taught that we only obtained them because of dm and df not of our own merit. Like toomuchtooold said we are entitled to just be however i find that difficult. Plus why did you feel you had to work harder when its clear you had enough on ur plate, again we are not allowed to just be or to ever be human . I was always told other people have problems not us we just keep going as normal we celebrate the good times and never address the bad times. Suppose its the british stiff upper lip crap. I actually challenged this thought once with her and she said cos by addressing the bad stuff it will suck you down. Yeah that worked well for me dm when i was suicidal after loss of daughter but felt i couldnt grieve cos i had to carry on as normal. Thats not just narcissism thats antiquated crap. Plus i suppose its the notion no matter what you,ve done it will never be good enough in their eyes so you look back with meh!
Im also in a transition whereby through injury i will have to change my job that ive been doing for last 20yrs, like you i have no passion for it, i was pushed into it cos no other career idea i had suited dm, not that she knew the real me or what i wanted. However since nc im toying with idea of a career change, scary as shit.

I think it's still underestimated the impact our childhoods have on our lives. So many of us have been conditioned to (is hate too strong?) dislike ourselves over many years, it's a cruel environment where our subconscious places self-love, self-esteem and self-worth in the gutter, and fosters self-hate. Potential for up to 18 years of time to brainwash tell us just how shit we are.

Ooh career change! Scary but I hope you can seamlessly transfer your skills over.

Suppose its the british stiff upper lip crap.

Yes I think so too but also a friend explained it as we are conditioned to never put ourselves first & to be 'trained rescuers'.

MsPeachh no I think a lot of us feel like that. I don't feel I had a proper childhood and I think I am just hoping that I manage to hash a decent enough one together for my DCs.

Narcissistic M has stepped it up a notch this weekend as she's not getting the preferred reaction from me. Seems her target this week seemed to be DD.
DCs were at their Dads at the weekend and she rang the Ex trying to get DD into trouble. DD understandably was upset over something and text her telling her she was unhappy. (I've told her not to but she's a teenager - I know she will have these moments).
M decided to ring the Ex up via videocall (most people would have text back discreetly but she was at a family members so had an audience to perform to) to 'tell on DD' only she didn't bet on me being at his at the same time. (DS needed something last minute for school and I'd said I'd drop it off for him). Her face when she saw me appear at the side of the ex on screen, the call got suddenly dropped 'accidentally'.
Anyway the Ex knows what she's like and always seems to be the one to want to 'keep the peace' which is why I suspect M rang him. It backfired on her as he rang her back once I had left told her to stop causing trouble with his family (the DCs) & told her not to contact him in future either. I'll be buying DD a new sim card this week. M will have to find someone else to pick arguments with.

They just cant help themselves moan19, triangulating all over the place. Trying to find a drama in a paper bag. Its so tiresome and transparent. Omg yes keep her away from dd as much as poss. Ive seen it with my niece and its heartbreaking. Trying to undermine their self confidence and esteem with shaming. Wtf does that its so alien to me.

Hello everyone
It has gradually dawned on me that both my mother and sister are probably narcissistic. They have always been very much in cahoots with each other and I have felt like the outsider and black sheep in the family. I recognise now that so much of my responses and the way I grew up have been conditioned by emotional abuse and neglect.
I am really struggling with this. My mother is now elderly . She puts on a positive, happy face to the world, but underneath is a really quite unpleasant person. I really struggle to understand her motivations and have no idea how to deal with her. I have gone from NC for years to low contact, to trying hard to make things 'right.' What i find hardest is that every time we seem to be becoming closer she bites me, either through being unkind and nasty to people I love or to me. I am so exhausted with it. She seems to see my daughter as an extension of me and is visiting the same hostility and passive aggressive behaviour on her. This hurts me deeply. My sister's children on the other hand are treated as though they can do no wrong, and their achievement talked about at length. It has left me feeling as though I am worthless. Even though she's clearly a bit crazy, it still makes me doubt myself and I veer from anger to shame and humiliation/hurt. It has got to the point where I sit in silence and let others speak when I am with her.
She will come out with accusations which have no foundation out of nowhere, often made to others about me.
She claims to love my daughter, yet treats her appallingly and admits she has nothing to say to her.
My sister accuses others of being narcissistic, but has all the narcissistic tendencies. I am stuck in the same cycle with her - hoping things will change, feeling bewildered by her lack of empathy, hurt by her behaviour. When we seem to be getting on better I become hopeful, but bang, we're back to the same dynamic.
i am so so tired of it all and want to break the cycle. Going NC is really not the answer, especially since she is elderly now and I have gone NC with my sister twice in the past. It isn't a solution.
I have read many of the books mentioned on this site, and read the FOG site.
Any insights would be welcome.

Can I ask, when you went NC/LC with your relatives, did you announce it or just phase them out? I am having issues with my mother and the relationship is souring and I can’t see it improving. I don’t want her in my life anymore

Definitely don't announce it, narcs care only about themselves and I highly suspect if you were to (announce it) you'd be letting yourself in for copious amounts of pain, as she will certainly let you know just how much you're hurting her, what a bad daughter you are, that you don't care and so on.

If you want some light reading then "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward, and if your mothers behaviour dates back to childhood "Childhood Disrupted" by Donna Jackson Nazakawa.

With my parents I just stopped phoning them. They didn't phone me, and it went on for 3 years. At first I found it a massive relief, but then I started feeling guilty about it and contact was resumed when we ran into them one day. None of us have ever spoken about it, my father is dead now.
With my sister, I tried to raise issues that had been upsetting me for many years. She wasn't willing to listen rationally and blew up at me. We had long email exchanges about the issues and then just gave up contacting each other for a long period. This has happened about three times now and it never gets us anywhere.
I have accepted that things will never change. They are totally toxic to be around and have had a really debilitating effect on my life. I try to minimise contact now and grey rock. It's hard though. My mother is a total hypocrite and has zero self awareness.

I would just distance yourself from your mother. Don;t phone her, take longer and longer to respond to texts/emails whatever. Keep all your conversation incredibly brief and non informative. Hope it just tails away. but if it doesn't I would suggest you tell her you need time out for six months or a year, and then extend it if you feel you need to.
I have actually thought seriously about moving and just not telling anyone where we have gone, but they would find out from other relatives. My mother is elderly now so I am trying to keep things civil because of that. I have given up hope with my sister, just try not to go into a meltdown when she says something incredibly patronising /rude/hurtful as she regularly does.
The trouble with grey rocking is that my mother now thinks I am a sad act with no life and no friends because I don't tell her anything, and that's bloody annoying. It's so so exhausting.

I stopped answering the phone. She had raged at my brother about how shit I was and he'd told me, so she knew really that he'd told me. As soon as I stopped answering the phone she went to defcon 1, ringing constantly, told my PILs she thought we'd all been killed in a car crash, turned up drunk at the door. So, I felt even less inclined to talk to her. My uncle (her brother) got involved. I told him why I didn't want to talk to her, he told her and she said I was a liar/"unwell" etc etc. After a couple of weeks of raging, she put her house on the market and emigrated. Told the people who bought her house (we lived in the same village) a whole load of crap and they then proceeded to blank me whenver they saw me and gossiped about it all. That was 4 years ago. Not seen her since.

Its a hard one, i didn't intentionally go nc it just sort of happened. I did scale back over the yrs and yes its mentally draining. We ended up arguing, i was grieving and she just pushed my buttons all the time, twisting the knife. I lost it. Now im the outcast and told my brother she can never speak to me again because what i did was so despicable, not spoken for 5yrs.

I didn't set out to go no contact but I did intentionally lower it because of the way my mum was behaving. In a nutshell she would be nasty or sly when she got me alone so I slowly pulled back until I only saw her when other people were there. That was okay at first but after a while she would take even a ten second window of opportunity to snipe at me until in the end being anywhere near her became unbearable. It got to the point that even the thought of meeting her made me so afraid that one day I messaged my dad that I couldn't make it to see them and that was that. I can't say it's been a doddle but i've been three months no contact and I don't regret it.

It wasn't planned though. I literally just could not set off to meet them that day, I was a wreck. For me though, even though it was an awful time I don't regret trying low contact, I knew what she was was, she ticked all the boxes and she has always always treated me very badly yet part of me had doubts and I still wondered if it was me. Going LC, as horrible as it was and although it nearly destroyed me at times also gave me the confidence to know for sure. I'm not recommending it, i'm just saying from my POV.

Everyone is different, you must do what's best for you and you will know when the time is right to do whatever you chose or feel. There were loads of times I just wanted my husband to just outright ban me from seeing her and I would wonder why he didn't, I can smile about feeling that way now but at the time I was absolutely desperate for someone to come and take control of the situation and tell me what to do.

I felt like NC was the answer but living with the guilt is almost as bad as having contact with my M. I just never rang her after the latest row and it's been 6 years now. I could never not ring my own daughter for that length of time...I mean honestly, who leaves their child like this, even parents of murderers still visit their child in prison!!!