"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

For the adult children of narc parents - have your parents ever demanded 'grandparents rights' or made a spitefu l call to Social Services? It's a genuine concern of mine. My mother is such a pro manipulater (and her former career portrays her as a VERY capable member of society), that I know she'd do very well in a court/therapy setting.

Morning!

pinkeey that is just horrible regarding the gifts. It's not the worst thing any of them has done, but it just... you guys, waiting for her to come back... what a total cow. It sounds like your sister is well on the way to turning into your mother as well. I think you are very wise to try and steer clear of them.

Lifeisnotsimple first off, I'm sorry for your loss . Don't apologise for the long post, it's absolutely fine.
That feeling that you have, that because you weren't physically neglected or beaten you shouldn't complain, is so natural - it's part of the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) and we all know how it feels. You deserved a damn sight more than being clothed and fed and not beaten, that's the minimum that your parents had to do to make sure they weren't sent to jail! And as regards it feeling like it's all in your head - that's not by accident, your mother has been gaslighting you about it since you were tiny. We're taught from early on to doubt our own perceptions and trust theirs, that the truth is too complicated for us to understand. It's not. You know what you know, it's simple.
You were surprised that you were scared at standing up to her. You're a successful person, you are strong, and you would expect to be able to handle this. You might also have been told by your mother something like "if you have a problem with me, at least have the decency/bravery to come and say it to my face." You don't have to do that, and you can feel scared. We've experienced trauma inflicted by these people since early childhood, many of us probably have complex PTSD. If a soldier with PTSD was scared to walk back into a war zone, you wouldn't call that cowardice, well, so it is with us. Some abusive parents like confrontation with us, because they know they can "win" (i.e. tap into the reserves of fear and dread that we have of their anger) and you don't have to give her the satisfaction. I know you're NC now, you know what I mean.

Norabutty those "but she's your mother" comments - that's secondary gaslighting - there's a good about this. See also all that "fault on both sides" bullshit.

Soliloquy I don't know much about the courts and SS, I did do a wee bit of reading about grandparents' rights and I think it's pretty rare for grandparents to get anywhere with this but one thing I took away is that they have to show that there was a preexisting close relationship between them and the grandchildren - I think more of the order of the kid lived with the grandparents part- or full time. But it's a good reason to cool off contact and make sure there's nothing that you rely on her for.

Regarding the other stuff, golondrina gave excellent advice and I hope I don't repeat too much but I wrote this reply while I was watching the kids do their homework...
Regarding your mother's intrusive behaviour - there are simple things that you can do to make this a bit better. First, put her on an information diet. Don't tell her anything emotionally charged - good stuff or bad stuff, doesn't matter, keep it to yourself and stick to topics that are neutral like the weather and how are the old neighbours doing. Does she have a key to your house? If so, is there something you can start doing like leaving your key in the door that will stop her coming in? (You can change the locks and refuse to give her a key but that will lead to a confrontation that you might not be ready for). If she's just nipping round, can you be there less often? Or answer the door in your coat - oh sorry, I was just leaving to do [thing you can't follow me to]. Make sure all your paperwork and stuff is filed away and locked away so she can't come across stuff.

With the stuff she has in your house - is yours the one that has wardrobes so big they had to be assembled in the house and are stuffed full of mostly unworn clothes? Or is that someone else? God, there are so many of these. Right, anyway, if you're ready to drop contact with her, what you could do is send her a letter recorded delivery saying "we need the space, you need to get this stuff out of our house by x date or we will be giving it to charity." And then stick to that. I mean, give her like a month or two so she has time to sort it, so she can't complain that she's being forced (she will still probably complain). Don't offer to help other than to be there when she's getting it removed, don't get drawn in.
Regarding ultimatums - I think Susan Forward suggests having one go at it, but I think it's a waste of time. You've no doubt spent your entire life pandering to your mother's whims and she still treats you really badly. Imagine how much worse it will be once she realises that a) you're not going to pander any more and b) you don't believe her to be the earthly saint of a mother that she is in her own head. Not pretty. Don't put yourself through it. You don't need to stand up to her or have it out with her, like I said to Lifeisnotsimple they've taught us to fear them and you don't need to face up to that fear or any of the rest of it, you just to limit the extent to which she can mess your life up with her toxicity.

Thanks toomuchtooold, i think the constant battling the dm was hard, if i gave her an info diet that would esculate immediately into a tirade of whats wrong with you? Etc, i know you said it obviously will cos she aint going to like it but if id have kept that going she would have stepped up even more. I used to have terrible anger management problem as well and it would have erupted into a argument. She would play the victim and everyone would be ringing me ( cos she liked to triangulate) saying how horrible id been to mum. Id be guilt ridden then to make up. For me this constant battle was exhausting i had other emotional issues going on to and i couldnt cope. In the family she is a powerful woman she literally had no bounderies. She was like a dictator. Through abusive coercion she dictated where you lived, what you wore etc. My db decided to move as far away as possible, he became the outcast, i was only 14 then but told he didnt love us anymore. He only moved to further his career lol and i think to get away from her cos when i was 18 he begged me to move by him but wouldnt tell me why. Even though we have had a brief conversation about dm he wont talk about the impact she has had on him. If i had my coat on when i answered the door she would come too no where was off limits to her. Despite me pleading saying they only want me there on my own, she would say aw they dont mind me tagging along. Trust me she was worse than a limpet lol. I was in my ivf clinic having a procedure with my legs in the air, she was there in the room despite me saying she could wait outside. I think my anger was because i was trapped and too weak to stand up to her. Once i lost my baby its like something in me snapped and i was in this position that nothing could hurt me more now so go for it. Plus i thought you have brushed me under the carpet all your life, you will not do that about my child making out she didnt matter. My anger was uncontrollable thats why 38yrs worth spilled out. You fear nc and what it will do but trust me it does nothing, no ones hurt me and i aint heard from her and i wish id done it long ago. Low contact is very hard to maintain i found and emotionally draining constantly in a cycle of her being offended and playing the victim. Everyone is in a different position i know sometimes you just need to draw a line but for me i know its final.

I hear what you are saying about thinking its in your head, but when i went to counselling she said you sound a very levelled individual then u think right now im making it up, when u chat to people they say aw my mum was like that, if you chat about your life people will say your an adult you make your own choices cant blame your mum. So you do think it is you. By the way since nc i cant make a decision for toffee, im learning to trust my own judgement but its scary. If i mess up ive an invisable dm on my shoulder talking in my ear. Not really but u get the gist. Ive got to learn to be less critical of myself. I have mega anxiety issues. Plus have an unhealthy relationship with food. So i dont think im out unscathed. With the help of dh and forums like this im recovering. Havent yet found a counsellor who understands and that again perpetuates the notion its in my head.

Hi, NC and not sure if I should be posting here. Sorry to post on this thread about something that will come across as trivial compared to others I have read on here. This is not about my own parents but my Mil. I think my Mil might be a narcissist or at the very least controlling, interfering and manipulative. Its really effecting my marriage.

She talks to me and dh like we are 5 years old (my own parents didn't talk down to me and micromanage as much when I was 5). Her opinion is the right opinion so best not to challenge it (whether it is child raising or politics etc). Everytime we see her it's always the sales pitch for the next family event (sometimes something that is 5 months plus away). She wants to know about everything we are doing, even my private medical matters, and then divulges other people's very personal information they wouldn't want others to know.
Constant emotional blackmail and guilt trips (will even use someones death as a way to guilt, could be there last Christmas etc), she will get others in family to guilt trip us. Silent treatment often used if Mil doesn't get her way (saying she couldn't visit one weekend because I was ill resulted in lots of silent treatment for my DH only contacting him to guilt him saying we are keeping her from her grandchild, making up any accuse to blaim or scold him for something).
She didn't want her children to have children. Telling my DH she hopes he isn't trying for a baby. When we told her I'm pregnant she was almost in tears saying 'I just don't think you will be able to cope with a baby'. Then she would constantly ring up every day after we had the baby telling us very obvious things incase we weren't taking care of the baby properly. She was obsessed with me not breastfeeding, trying to tell me to stop ringing up everyday to see if I had stopped, and then trying to bribe my DH to get me to stop). Not the only thing she will use bribary for, just another method to try to get her way.
She has an opinion on everything we do (how and where I give birth, how much to spend on engagement ring or birthday gifts, dh needs to go on a diet, I need to wear makeup, how much to donate at our dc christening, how I spend my own disposable income (I shouldn't be buying such and such etc). There is constant reminders to do things and follow ups if you don't do it.

I have become the black sheep of the family, I'm terrible or unreasonable for not wanting to have them visit whenever they want, go to every family event, go to theirs every Christmas (going on boxing day still isn't good enough). They all made me feel like an outcast for getting pregnant and gave me the silent treatment when I saw them.

How do I get my DH on board with going low contact (he just thinks that's how she is and seems fine with telling her every intimate detail of our life)? How do I protect my child from her (from emotional incest, emotional blackmail etc)? I don't want to be talked down to like I'm a child who can't cope with mil in front of my own child? Sorry for long post and thanks for reading.

Allthegoodusernamestaken

This is not a trivial matter at all. Your MIL is an abusive person.

As someone whose mother in law operates more covertly than overtly I would offer the following counsel:-

Keep well away from her and if you do see her at all at family events adopt the grey rock technique of being as boring as possible. Infact I would no longer attend any family events, he can go on his own if he wants to. NO personal details should be given out by you and your H to her. He may well find that hard because she has really encouraged her son here to be an extension of her and have no boundaries. The scales may fall from his eyes ultimately re his mother but equally they may not.

Do not subject any children to your MIL, they should not see her at all. She is not an emotionally healthy person at all for you and your H, let alone your children, to be at all around. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. She will harm any and all of your children in not too dissimilar ways to how your H has been damaged. You can and should block her ways of contacting you directly. His primary loyalty too should be to you as his wife, not his mother.

You do not mention his dad/your FIL in all this, where is he?.

Unfortunately your DH lucked out in the mother stakes and got this abusive woman as his mother. She is also enabled by other family members who act as her flying monkeys. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. He remains deeply mired in his own inertia re his mother (he cannot or equally will not deal with her at all even though he probably on some level does realise she is not a good parent to him, its too painful for him to acknowledge) and this along with his own fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) hurts him as well as you as his wife here. That situation may not change with him. You can ultimately only change how you react to her now and going forward. Protect your own self and any children you go onto have; raise your boundaries a lot higher than they have been to date (i.e. no more visits to them) and raise your children without her malign influence in their day to day lives. If your parents are nice concentrate on them and I would also consider moving a lot further away from your MIL as well.

Do read "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward as a starting point and keep posting here too.

Infact given how abusive she is towards you both I would have no further contact with her at all. Your H may well want to continue to have a relationship with her but that does not mean that you and any children have to as well.

Gosh allthegoodusernames we have all been through this. Im with atilla the meerkat. You need to protect yourself and your kids. She is intrusive and you will never be able to rationalise with her. Give it up. People say will say ignore her but she wont allow it cos shes always there goading. The only way is to back off. Dont visit, if dh is not on board with kids not visiting i would have her round but never leave her on her own with the kids. Be like atilla says as bland as poss. Yes no answers. You need to have frank discussion with dh as well. Tell why you are doing this. It aint easier.

AttilaTheMeerkat thanks for your reply and assuring me because there has been points where I have begun to question if I was the unreasonable one because my DH doesn't seemed bothered by his mother's behaviour and the other family members act like I'm the unreasonable one. She also denies some of the things she does and says (unless there is evidence like texts or emails) so I start to question myself. Mil and DH's dad got divorced when he was a child, think dh then became the substitute husband (think that's what it's called) for a whole because mil would tell him all her problems/ all the financial problems. Mil married again and step FIL thinks her behaviour is normal and I'm the wicked dil. He even joins in on the action by telling my DH I might be a gold digger and telling my DH he needs to earn more to support his family (we are able to pay the bills fine and have never asked or borrowed money from them). How do I stop my DH if he wants to take dc to his mother or allow her to have unsupervised access, it's difficult getting him to stop telling her personal details aboout me. Thanks, got the toxic inlaw books and started reading it.

I would not invite her to your home either; she will continue to behave badly within it and your home should be a sanctuary. Do not go anywhere near her from now on. If he wants a relationship with her then he will need to have that on his own. He not being able to address his own inertia let alone his fear, obligation and guilt when it comes to his mother is also part of the overall issue.

Trying to get dh on board is very difficult, we just end up arguing. It's the main thing we argue about.

Not surprised to read they got divorced. Women like his mother cannot do relationships at all and the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are (as her now husband is) or are otherwise discarded. Her now husband is also her hatchet man/enabler here and cannot be at all relied upon either as you have all clearly seen.

Does your DH actually believe what his stepfather is saying to him? What are his perceptions of this man here, what is his relationship like with this man?.

Your H has been well trained by his mother to serve her at his overall expense and he will ultimately need a hell of a lot of therapy to overcome being raised as an adult child of a narcissist. He may not ever fully recover from being so sadly either.

Your marriage could well be on the line here going forward if he continues to bury his head in the sand. He needs to know that and fully back your position here; a united front must be presented.

Another worry is if I push to hard with it, he might choose his mother and we end up threatening divorce/ getting divorced and he will then give her all the unsupervised access she wants and I won't be able to protect my dc from her.

His inertia is very much hurting him here and that is why he is also arguing. He is far more afraid of his mother (her in particular) and stepfather than he ever would be of you. He probably holds out some hope somewhere inside that she will change. Will he be at all willing to sit down with a therapist to discuss this?.

His mother may well start crowing about grandparents rights; thankfully there is no automatic rights of access to grandchildren in this country from grandparents. As I understand it the relationship has to be beneficial to the child and the onus is very much on the grandparents to prove that such a relationship is beneficial as well. It cannot be demanded.

TBH if he chose his mother over you it shows how weak a man he actually is and I would also go onto formalise all contact arrangements through the courts rather than an informal arrangement. It shows how much of a stranglehold she has over him.

She would have acted the self same regardless of whom he chose to marry, its not you at fault here.

He didn't believe step fil about the gold digger bit, but he didn't call him up on it. His attitude is mostly ow well if they insult me, that's just the way they are attitude.

Not sure if he will sit down with a therapist, he will probably think I am insulting his mother if I suggest it

AttilaTheMeerkat thanks for the help and advice.
She would have acted the self same regardless of whom he chose to marry, its not you at fault here. thanks, mil has a way of making you feel inferior, like there is something wrong with you

Mothers who are controlling, combative, hypercritical, or high in narcissistic traits usually orchestrate relationships among and between siblings, especially if they play favorites and engage in scapegoating, as many do. When a mother is center-stage in this way, and her children are reduced to orbiting planets, self-interest can easily trump whatever comfort or camaraderie could possibly be derived from sibling ties. The now children who are trying to stay in a mother’s good graces or, alternatively, under her radar, may tattle on sisters and brothers as a matter of course, as well as engage in blame-shifting and scapegoating.

This is what I would ask/tell your H:-

Stop trying to please them. It’s normal to want your parents’ approval, but toxic parents are nearly impossible to please. And more importantly, it’s your life and you’re entitled to make your own choices and do what makes you feel good. Living your life according to someone else’s values and goals will leave you chronically unhappy and unfulfilled. And if you live your life trying to please your parents, you’ll be their captive — forever seeking validation and love from people who probably can’t give it to you. When you give them this type of power, you allow your parents to determine your self-worth – to tell you whether you’re smart, successful, a good parent, a worthwhile person, and so on.

What do you do in order to please your parents even though it doesn’t work well for you? What do you need to do for yourself, even if your parents disapprove?

Boundaries help us set clear expectations and limits for how others can treat us. Boundaries create emotional and physical space between you and your parents. This is probably something you didn’t have as a child, so it can feel uncomfortable to set boundaries and start telling your parents how you want to be treated. Toxic people resist boundaries; they want to be in control. Setting boundaries with toxic people is difficult because they don’t respect limits, but don’t let that deter you. Boundaries are essential to all healthy relationships. Remember, it’s okay to limit contact with your parents, tell them no, come late or leave early. It’s even okay to have no contact with your parents. You don’t owe them anything! Relationships need to be built on respect and you can’t respect people who continually treat you poorly.

What boundaries do you need with your parents? What’s one step you can take toward setting those boundaries?

How can you take care of yourself or disengage when your parents can’t see your point of view or aren’t interested in your perspective?

How do your parents exploit your kindness by expecting you to meet their demands 24/7? How does it feel to recognize that you aren’t obligated to do things for them? Can you release some of the guilt by remembering that you’re setting healthy boundaries and taking care of yourself just as other adults do?

Trust is an important element of healthy relationships and we should only share personal information with those that have proven themselves trustworthy. Unfortunately, your parents may not fall into this category if they gossip about you, criticize, share things about you without your permission, or use what you tell them against you. You aren’t obligated to tell them everything (or anything) that’s going on in your life or answer their questions. Share only what feels comfortable and safe.

Changing the ways you relate to your toxic parents can be scary because it will most certainly upset the status quo! It’s only natural that your parents will resist the changes you try to make. Transitions are difficult and stressful but setting boundaries with your parents is the path to freedom from their toxic energy and expectations.

He really has got his head buried in the sand here and sadly he is suffering as well. He does not fully realise the extent of harm here that has been done to him by both his mother and stepfather (her hatchet man)

If he refuses then go on your own. You need to be able to talk in a safe environment. You need to find someone who has a good grasp of narcissistic family structures as well as talking to someone who has NO familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

AttilaTheMeerkat thanks very much for the good advice. If nothing changes, or very little I feel like divorce isn't an option because then I guarantee dh will do whatever his mum wants and let her have lots of unsupervised access. Then I can't protect dc from her. Feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place if you know what I mean, and I'll have to push as much as I can for no unsupervised access and never let her be alone with DC.

That is why I stated that any and all future custody arrangements should be formalised through the courts. I would also start writing down any and all instances of her abuses towards you and your H and gather hard evidence.

Allthegoodnames both my sil, one got away and divorced the other is nc she lets my brother take the kids to see dm but only once a yr. My younger brother golden child adores dm and although divorced because she was so interfering the kids are there every week. Dm slags those kids off awfully. I could cry for them. Im not sure if its related but ones actually seeing a child psychologist as the insistence of said dm. And the cycle repeats.

AttilaTheMeerkat can all future custody arrangements for mil be formalised through the courts?

Lifeisnotsimple that's awful. My bil is the golden boy, he adores mil and does whatever she asks. I feel sorry for his gf

You need legal advice re his mother and I would seek this asap. As I understand it grandparents rights to their grandchildren are not automatic ones.