"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I got a shiver down my spine reading about the things being deliberately broken/going missing. My mother used to do that as well.

MissMaisel for me the abuse started early so no insights, sorry. It sounds absolutely awful. I wonder if your trauma might be more similar to the sort of trauma suffered by people who are imprisoned - prisoners of war, or people like that Kampusch girl? Sometimes we talk on here about complex trauma and complex PTSD which is when the trauma starts in early childhood - I wonder whether your trauma is more similar to "simple" (not to imply less bad) PTSD? Although I think when it's within the family, it's all complex trauma to some degree.

Reagan ignore her text at the very least! I think that pointing out her rudeness and not getting pulled into the trading of insults is an excellent way to deal with her, and well done for being brave enough for it. I would add to that, that when she misbehaves, feel free to limit your contact with her. The worse the behaviour, the longer you leave it. These people thrive on drama and if she's down the milder end of the crazy, it'll be enough to train her to respect your boundaries. (If she's worse than you think, she may escalate her bad behaviour but the great thing about limited contact is that you don't have to listen to any of it!)

Hi all. Hope its okay to join I needed some advice on how to deal with my narcissistic M please. We have always had a strained relationship and she has a very much Jekyll and Hyde personality. I went NC at one point with her but life and circumstances brought us back together. She has since reverted back to her old ways and I have gone NC with her. I warned her that if her old behaviour reared it's head I'd cut ties for mine and the DCs sanity. I followed through with what I said after she caused a lot of unnecessary upset the last few weeks with her behaviour (things like causing unnecessary anxiety by ringing the ExDH telling her no one could get hold of DD - by no-one she means herself and DD was found safe and well at home, I pick up autistic DS from a different school at the same time as DD walks home & M knew I couldn't reassure anyone at the time, DD is a good girl and always comes straight home from school.) There is many other issues but I'd take up half of mumsnet. I have also had two family members who used to talk to me go suddenly silent on me (which if I'm honest is what i found the most upsetting as I was close to them) so I also think she has been telling stories to them too. I recently opened a FB account told her to let Aunt X know that the FB request was from me. After weeks of fobbing me off saying she'd let Aunt X know she then admitted she'd 'forgot' (repeatedly ) to make them aware it was from me. I no longer have any of their contact numbers after I broke my phone. The most recent one was turning up at a health centre unannounced when I was ill (friend had bumped into me on the way there & text M to say they'd just seen me & hoped I got better soon) with the pretence of 'being there for me', the lady wouldn't let her through for data protection reasons. After yet another upset I have told her I will follow through with the going NC warning, I have had several text messages since along the lines of 'thanks for causing me to be so upset in such a public place'. I have blocked her on all SM channels and am awaiting the inevitable fallout from her friends who know her as nothing but the 'sweet little grandma'. Such a sweet little grandma when she last had them she took them out to a theatre show but wouldn't buy them a drink. (I had given her the £ for such expenses but she didn't get them one) this is also the same grandma who spent years telling everyone my autistic DS is just naughty before accepting him for who he was.

Mary2019 you've done this before so you know the script: drama, flying monkeys, the dramatic improvement in her behaviour that will disappear as soon as you let her back in...

What I would ask you is, which of the people you both know do you really care about? And if I were you I would focus my efforts on those people. If you need help getting their contact details, is there anyone other than your mother you can ask? Anyone in the family who you know will take your side or at least prepared to respect your opinions about your mother?

I think with the people she's turning against you, it's hard, there's no easy answer, but I think the best way is to try and keep in contact with them and just have nice, pleasant interactions with them. It's hard. You want to discover what it is that your mother might have said to put them off you, but you don't want to spend a lot of time talking about your mother, to avoid giving the impression that "you're as bad as each other" or whatever. So you have to strike a balance. Maybe wait and see if they bring it up, and deal with it then, but resist the temptation to vent about her (I'm sure I'm telling you things you already know here). When they go low, we go high. And when people see you responding in a sane, patient, boundaried way to this bullshit, the good ones will be able to form the judgement about who they want to be friends with.

Other than that, it's the usual: block her off your phone, tell the school she's not to pick up the kids if that's a worry - can you explain to your Ex-H what's going on, will he be sympathetic? Block her friends off your SM as well if you want! They're just being flying monkeys, intentional or unintentional, and you shouldn't give any more thought to their opinions than they do to your wellbeing when they start nudging you to get back in contact with your mother when they at best don't know what she's like and at worst don't care.

Thankyou toomuchtooold for your reply. It's funny how you mention the "you're both as bad as each other" comment because that's exactly what I got told by a mutual friend recently. I accepted it and thought perhaps I am being as bad as her and started being a bit nicer towards Ms behaviours, well I would say tolerating them more. I now see that this is the reaction she wants friends to have to let them continue thinking I'm as bad as her. I said something like bloody in the conversation and got 'don't swear I brought you up better than that!' I laughed and reminded her of a few incidents where she was physically abusive to me as a child, the reply I got was "oh for goodness sake Mary, get your head out of the past and move on!" (I know not to expect an apology she'll never admit she was wrong).

With reference to the family members no there's no other way of contacting them that I haven't already tried. I sent birthday cards and Christmas cards to them as I usually do and tried texting them a number of times (but not too much I didn't want to look obsessive) before my phone broke and I lost their number. We stayed at Aunt X's a few years ago so she knows who we 'really' are and not the version that is painted of us. That's why I resorted to the FB request, i didn't mention M just sent a cherry message saying "don't worry - only us" with a photo attached so she knew who it was. It was met with a wall of silence as I know they have been active on FB several times since that message (when I have checked if they had accepted yet there have been recent public posts). I think I just need to accept the fact that they've clearly fell for whatever story they were spun. The ironic thing is M hadn't spoken to either family member in years before a family bereavement last year.

Thankfully the Ex understood once he'd calmed down (he knows what she's like) and stopped panicking. But I feel like M had purposely done it at a time she knew I couldn't reassure him (which looks even more calculating when I remember he has high blood pressure problems as it is).
The last few days I've been quite upset and just wish there was somewhere new I could go to and start all over again (current financial status would never allow it). Is that normal? Also thankyou for your advice about resisting the urge to vent about M with mutual friends. A mutual friend rang last night and I kept moving the conversation forward anytime M was brought up. She is meeting me for a coffee next week.

It is sad about the family - I think there's loads of us in this situation. I'm not in contact with any of my family for this reason. I know that my mother used to say a lot of awful stuff about me when we were in contact, so now that we're not I can only imagine that the things she's saying are even worse. I could spend my time and effort trying to fight those perceptions and but I would rather spend my time on the people I've chosen to have in my life. I also don't really want the family to have to choose between me and my mother - I'm happy for her to have them (and I think it gives her an incentive not to get in contact with me so that I don't start telling people stuff).

I think it's the biggest unfairness of all this, that having suffered through childhood and adulthood, when we finally cop on we find that the ground has already been laid by them for us not to be believed. If you find a friend who gets it and believes you and has your back, that is the best thing ever. But most people don't want to borrow trouble, and there I think that when you rise above it and refuse to get drawn in, people will slowly see that there is only one person creating drama and it's not you.

And I don't think it's at all unreasonable to want to start over somewhere else - I was really fortunate that my mother revealed her true colours again just as we were moving house, and thanks to Attila's awesome advice I kept my address from her. It is definitely harder if you are running into her the whole time. But keep your boundaries up, keep her on an information diet, and she'll slowly run out of things to wind you up with.

Hi folks!

I've just found this thread. I don't really know anyone with parents like mine so I'm glad. I just want to get over caring about how they've treated me and how my mum still treats me.

My childhood wasn't abusive I wouldn't say, but I was neglected. I was thrown on the streets at 16 and had to grow up pretty fast. My parents didn't tell me why and if I've ever asked about it, ' You know what you were like' is all I get. I really don't though!

I've either been low contact or no contact in the 20 odd years since. My dad has since died and I've got children of my own. I've tried to broach the topic of our terrible relationship with my mother since but she will not talk about it. So I've really given up. She's got a great relationship with my sibling who lives on the same street as me. They have a standing invitation to have dinner with her and she visits which obviously I can see. My children are aware that granny doesn't care through their own observations. Why is it still hurtful? And why doesn't she care about us? I wish I knew.

Welcome! 💐 We ALL have parents like yours here!

She sounds awful. Did they actually throw you out?!

You owe her nothing. Try to understand that she is disordered, you are not the cause.

I realised recently that my inner voice was saying "if I am being treated this way then I must deserve it". I have been raised to feel this. Just saying it out loud is helping to negate it.

Thank you!

Yes. They bagged up my clothes and took them to the park where I hung around with my friends and threw them at me. I had nowhere to stay and had to rely on friends parents putting me up for a couple of months. It was awful.

I think it's had a huge effect on me as a person. I think I'm useless at everything and have no confidence at all. I recently passed my driving test and panic because I'm too crap to drive! As well as many things. I'm the most anxious person I know :( I'm starting counselling at the end of the month. I really hope I can make some positive changes!

Fuck. Ing. Hell.

Fuck her!
Move on
Get counselling
Be glad she ignores you and your children. Many on this site struggle to protect their DC from the toxic GPS.
Be mega proud of all that you have achieved for yourself. You rock!

I'd love to overcome some of her legacy, I suppose I could call it! I could be a much better person than I am just now. I'm sick of the voice in my head (hers) holding me back. I didn't work for years after having the children because she told me that no one would ever take me on. The thing I remember her saying to me most growing up wasn't I love you (never) but 'if brains were gunpowder, you wouldn't have enough to blow your head off'. I just finished my degree in the summer so I know it's not true but it's still there.

I follow this thread, but haven't commented as my parents, whilst occasionally infuriating, aren't toxic. My father's mother was a gold standard narcissist, so I'm writing as an adult child of a father who went fully NC with his entire family when I was seven years old.

I can tell you more about her if you like, but if I say that after she and his brother perjured themselves in court to get money out of my dad, and she accused her ex-husband of being in a relationship with his own daughter you get the idea.

I suppose I'm posting to say that I am so very, very glad I was protected by my dad from his family. I am the adult your children will be.

Dad told me bits at a time in an age appropriate way - so me at 5 asking 'why have I only got one gramdma?' had it explained I had two, but daddy's mummy isn't nice like mummy's mummy so we don't go to her house because nobody enjoys it there.'

If you ever doubt yourself with regard to keeping yourself and your children away from these people, know that this fortysomething is very glad my dad went NC - I have met a couple of cousins in recent years and Grandma fucked them up too, pitting siblings against each other in some very disturbing ways.

I wish all of us health, happiness and peace and hope I haven't overstepped by posting here .

Thanks weezol, I went nc with my mother when my children were 6 and 3 (now nearly 11 & 8) and so far have explained it in a similar to what your dad said to you. I hope we manage to come out as well rounded as you sound.

X

Hi- just joining this thread as have a toxic mother. Can I ask though- how to you deal with the fear of rerunning some of the patterns that your parents did? I really worry as I think that I am sometimes on a short fuse with my kids due to tiredness etc & don’t give them what they need emotionally. I really don’t want to repeat mistakes of my mother

@Worthygirl

If you can tell when it’s your mother speaking, not you, then you might have toxic ‘fleas’. Seriously, It is a thing! It’s basically sort of copied behaviour or responses that you can pick up when you spend time with toxic people but it’s not the true you.

It’s a bit like when you spend a lot of time with someone who has an accent you can start picking up bits of the accent too.

I think if you’re at risk of chanelling your mother when you’re tired rather than being like her all the time then it does sound like a flea. If you can recognise when you’re on the way to responding in the hurtful way your mother did then you’re halfway to stopping it happening.

Wow, I found this post by accident, and I'm glad I did. I joined mumsnet for this thread. I'm in a pretty bad way atm, if anyone has any experience or advice for how to cope with an engulfing narcissist mother, I'd be thankful. Im at the end of my rope.

Hi Solliloquy,

I don’t have any advice but just wanted you to know I’m on the thread ignoring you wanted to chat.

I’m having a pretty awful week having decided to go NC with my mother so was just reading the opening post on this thread to gain some strength.

Jesus I didn’t mean ignoring you!

Stupid iPhone! I’m so sorry and embarrassed how that came out.

thisisthelaststraw lol no probs! Im having problems with mumsnet; ive been trying to start a thread but it keeps logging me out whenever i try and post

Soliloquy unfortunately, ime the only way to cope with it is ultimately no contact.

(I tried to start a thread with this but it kept logging me out) sorry this is long...I don't really know where to begin, I guess I'm asking for help from anyone who has had experience with this, or can offer some advice. I feel stuck.
I'm an only child and was raised by a predominantly single mother. I'm now an adult, married, kids of my own, but I still feel like a trapped, frightened kid when it comes to my mother.
I spent my childhood walking on eggshells; for example, I had to be very aware and careful, if my moms 'moods'. On a good day she'd just criticise or belittle me, if she had a partner I'd be ignored. On bad days I was told to kill myself. She once offered t o kill herself with me. I grew up hearing ' I made you, you belong to me, so do what you're told'. I couldn't have friends, because when i did, she wo uld manipulate me into not speaking to them, or she'd be so horrible to them they would not want anything to do with me. I grew up very lonely. She was my only family.
My problem is this - even though I left home ten years ago, she still has such a hold over me it's suffocating. She tries to control my finances, she knows all of my business, she has tried to twist my mind against my husband (telling me it'll never last, telling me she doesn't like him, that he's boring, that HE manipulates ME (!) , trying to get me to do things that'll sabotage my marriage... She's always undermined my parenting; telling my kids to ignore me, encouraging them to do the opposite of what I ask. She disrespects me, my family, and my home.
Recently, she stay ed with us, and it wa s a living hell. She was verbally aggressive - swearing, having temper tantrums, shouting how she wishes she could kill herself (in the same room as my kids), and she also threw her laptop onto the floor when things weren't going her way. The laptop landed 2 feet away from my child.
I'm asking you all for help and advice, as I don't know how to break free from her. She lives near by, and she's thr type to just turn up at my door. She also has personal property at my home that she needs to collect, so I have to see her at some point. Ive tried standing up to her before, and all she does is send s me torrents of abuse ('its youre fault), before trying to ignore me (she eventually starts txting ne agai n). If i don't respond to her txts asap, she calls me names, swears at me, or guilt s me. I feel weak, I feel like a coward. I dont know what to do. I just know that I cant go on like this for much longer.
If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

Solliloquy I could have written the same. Ultimately I’ve decided I would never let another human treat me as she does and so, sad and hurtful as it is, I have to let go.

I don’t have advice but would say just ask that one question as a start. Would you accept it from anyone else in life?

I’m sorry you’re going through it too

thisisthelaststraw no i wouldnt! That's what makes me so disgusted with myself, is knowing that I wouldn't bother with anyone that treats me that way, but with her I thinj it's part fear, part being so worn down by it I'm only just realising what she's been doing. Seeing it for what it is. I don't like who I become when I'm around her.
This might be a stupid question, when you went no contact, did you tell your mom you wouldn't speak to them unless they changed, or did you just start blanking their calls? I've been told by others to talk to her, to give her an ultimatum, but i know she wont change. I've tried asking her to behave differently before and yet here I am lol.