"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

NPD is narcissistic personality disorder. Whatever the root causes here of her overall dysfunction it is not your fault she is the ways she is and you did not make her that way.

Hello all, I'm new here (waves).

I wouldn't call my parents abusive but our family is rather dysfunctional. There's a lot of backstory, but I need help with one specific issue, so I'll just talk about that. It's a really minor incident and nothing like as bad as the stories on here and I appreciate that.

At my dad's birthday party with my aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents in attendance, I asked if the bread my daughter (6mo) had been given had seeds in it (it was late and she had never been fed seeds before, we try to introduce new foods earlier in the day so we can better keep an eye on her in case of allergies). My cousin came out with something along the lines of 'Oh, you'd think your mum had never raised any children before!'

My mother has pretty huge control issues and feels personally insulted every time I don't follow her advice. So at this point she joined in with my cousin, mocking me about every parenting choice I've made that has gone against what she thought I should do (baby-led weaning, waiting until six months to wean, not letting an aunt's new dog lick the baby, stuff like that). I was quite offended, told my cousin she was being unkind and that I hadn't asked for her opinion and left. My mother came as I was preparing to leave and said 'Do I get a hug?' and when I hugged my aunt first, said 'Oh, stuff you then!' and turned to storm off. I then grudgingly gave her a one-armed hug and left. Another family member informed me that she then spent the evening deriding my character, calling me precious and a 'bridezilla' (I absolutely wasn't and ended up giving her sole control of some aspects of the day just to shut her up). She was described as 'lapping up' the attention from the extended family.

I'll admit I may be overreacting a bit here, and am admittedly quite precious about my pfb, but I still think the verbal bashing she gave me in front of all and sundry wasn't quite on. I'm not one to hold a grudge so I'm no longer actually angry about the incident, but feel like I need to make my point about how it is not acceptable to insult and mock me in front of other people. She texted me today to say, 'Hope you are all well?' I want to reply because ignoring it would be rude but I don't want her to think what she did was so easily forgotten. What would you do? Should I just let it go?

Dysfunctional to my mind equals abusive as well and you copped a lot of abuse at your dad's birthday party. BTW what did he do, nothing I suppose?. Are he and your mother still together btw?

I would stay away from all of them going forward, particularly your awful sounding cousin and am glad to read you asserted yourself here with her (not that this is any excuse or justification because there is not any but is she actually very young, say late teens?). Was your mother also the one who called you a bridezilla, precious etc?.

Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way. I would also keep your child well away from them all as well going forward, it will do her no favours at all to be around such toxic people.

Who texted you today saying hope you are well. Do not respond to it, such disordered people want a response and to them that is the reward. This person is not interested in your wellbeing and likely as well never has been.

They are together, Dad was in the kitchen so didn't see the altercation. My cousin is in her mid - thirties and has 2 DC of her own.

My mother did all the name calling, but was apparently egged on by some of the extended family. She is the one who texted. Do you really think it's a NC-worthy?

Yes I do.

What do you get out of seeing these people anyway?. Your mother is now acting like nothing has happened.

We could debate whether you are overprotective. FWIW I don't think you are and anyway as the parent that is your choice to make. So put that concern to one side.

What is beyond doubt is that their behaviour towards you was NASTY.

If they all sat around enjoying slagging you off I would say you are certainly the scapegoat. From personal experience I can tell you that this is a permanent state of affairs which you will be powerless to change.

So yes, I would go NC. And yes, it's abusive.

Hi everyone. This is a very minor issue but I just wanted to vent somewhere where I won't get flamed.

I'm just exhausted by my mother's inability ever to be wrong. It's not the only issue in our relationship, but it feels like it's at the heart of everything. It's just a very small incident but she was looking after DD aged 2 and she let DD have something that she's not normally allowed to hold by herself (open tub of bubble mix) and DD ended up tipping it over a piece of expensive electronic equipment which is now ruined and will need to be replaced. If my mother had said "oh dear, I'm sorry, I thought it would be OK" , I'd be more than cool with that. Accidents happen. I have lots of them. But DM's reaction (which she's repeated several times) has been "Oh, well I suppose I feel guilty" (in her most martyred voice which implies that she only feels guilty because she's such a sensitive soul) "because I was the one who was in the house with her at the time" (this is a blatant attempt at minimisation because the accident happened as a result of something she did; it wasn't a random accident that just happened to occur around her and not me) "but it could have happened to anyone with anything" (more bloody minimisation - maybe DD might have spilt a cup of milk over the TV another time but that's not what happened) "and the main thing is that DD is OK" (blatant guilt-trip implying that I'm somehow a bad mother for being mildly stressed about having to buy a new TV that I can't afford instead of stressing about some hypothetical, completely imaginary accident to DD).

I guess the main reason I'm upset is that I was a clumsy kid/ teenager (mostly because of nerves) and my mother generally used to be a bitch whenever I broke something. "Everytime I get something nice, you spoil it" is one I remember in particular, when the cat scratched her carpet because I didn't spot him hiding in the living room when I was locking up at night. I've spent all my life feeling like a fat clumsy oaf because my parents always mocked me for being heavy-handed (e.g. they bought me a digital radio when I was a teenager which came with a broken aerial, but, instead of replacing it, they just told me I'd broken it myself because I was so clumsy). But, when my mother breaks something of mine, she's the saintly martyr and victim.

I haven't said any of this to her, of course. I haven't said anything about the TV other than "oh dear, shit happens" and telling her how rude the tv engineer was, because we both hate Sky. But I just feel like something has snapped inside me. It's not the only thing like this lately, e.g. she told me that I'd dosed DD wrong with a recent course of medication and, when I proved to her that I definitely hadn't, she then turned it round on me and started saying that she didn't understand why I was getting so upset because it didn't matter whether I'd got the dosage wrong as the course was finished (but it didn't clear up the infection, so if I'd been giving DD a half dose, as she wrongly claimed, that would have been very relevant!).

So bloody tired.

Sorry, Reagan - I didn't see your post before posting mine! They sound truly awful.

That's ok, @consideringtakingthetreedown, I know what it's like. My mum has never been wrong in her entire life. My sympathies.
As a side note, have you now taken the tree down?

@fc301 and AtillatheMeerkat (great user name BTW) thanks for your input. It honestly just doesn't register as a massive deal that merits lasting nc to me though, maybe because my family has always been openly critical of one another, so it seems normal? I don't know. I don't think I'm ready for NC, but thank you for your responses nonetheless. My cousin didn't shock me, though I was angry at her audacity. The family as a whole was more surprised by my response than to my cousin and mother's onslaught of mockery. There's an expectation that you either try to insult them in return or just sit and take it. I think I'm the first one to have called her out on her nastiness.

My mother annoyed me more because she's my mother and oughtn't be ganging up against me with anyone, surely? If she's got a bone to pick with me she should tell me but not in front of a room of onlookers.

AIBU? My DM was emotionally and physically abusive and neglectful towards me during childhood. The details of it all came out 2-3 years ago. I am low contact with DM because of her past and present behaviour. I retain some contact in order to see the remaining family members and to join in family events.

Last time we went to a family event DM managed to get DH on his own away from me and proceeded to tell him that ‘Regardless of what Neverland says or thinks it’s important that you know she was loved as a child.’ And then went on to ‘explain’ a lot of the events of my childhood to DH. There was a different reason why each big event of emotional abuse ‘had to be done’ or ‘was in Neverland’s best interests’. DH says he found it very uncomfortable and hard to end the conversation and now wishes he’d just told her to stop but he shies away from conflict.

I was discussing this with my DB (who is normally quite supportive) recently and he said DM has a right to give her side of the story to my DH.
However, I see it differently as this was done when I wasn’t there to give my version and this is my DH who is my support and didn’t need to be approached by DM. I am really angry that she expected him to side with her over me and also she’s suggesting that I’m either lying or insane surely if I wasn’t abused but believe I was? AIBU? And WWYD? To me it suggests that she can’t stand me having someone who supports and believes in me in my life and she’s trying to get in the way of that. I’ve had no contact with DM since this event but I don’t want to exclude myself from family events to avoid DM. It’s bad enough that I’ve had a terrible childhood without isolating myself from the wider family now as an adult. WWYD?

MissMaisel in my case the abuse was there from as early as I can remember but a distressing event for my DM did trigger a massive escalation of the abuse at one stage.

I’m sorry to hear about your teens. It sounds awful and I’m not surprised you’re finding it hard to reconcile

@ReaganSomerset I can't help but feel that your mum should be your biggest supporter, not your biggest critic.

I don't think i'll ever understand why they do this, it's mean and it's horrible.

A little update - It's been three months since i've seen my parents. The last time I posted my mum had been round to a workmates son's house complaining that she's not seen me. He doesn't know me or my mum. She managed to wangle his mum's, my workmates, mobile number from him.

Last week my mum texted my workmate saying that i've still not been in touch and to pass on the message to me that she's going on holiday for a month and wants me to get in touch when they get back. My workmate passed on this message whilst I was sat at work. It sounds nothing but I freaked out inside and had to leave the room, it was as though she'd invaded my safe place. Then, as I was so upset the whole thing became a topic of discussion with all my workmates.

It turned out that my mum and my workmate had quite a discussion about me, I didn't see the texts but she showed them to someone else. My workmate was saying how it wasn't like me and she's sure i'll be in touch soon. OMG No! It was none of her business. In the end another workmate told her off for getting involved and wrote a text on her behalf saying that she's a work colleague not a friend and can she please stop contacting her and her son. Then she showed her how to block her number.

The next day my mum circumvented my block on my phone and called me. I had a feeling it was her as I never receive calls (only texts) so fortunately I didn't speak and after a few 'hellos' she hung up.

The lady that saw the texts asked me if I wanted to know what was said, I said that I didn't but can I just ask if at any point she asked how I was or in any way asked about my welfare. She said no she didn't, not at all, it was all about her and added that she thought it was 'disgusting'.

I kind of get the feeling that by approaching these people that I know but she doesn't my mum is setting herself up as a victim. My mum is like a lot of other parents discussed on here, never wrong and hates to be caught out or pulled up on something she's wrong about but when she can't win her way round to being right she'll settle for being a victim. In a nutshell that about sums her up. I've said a few times before she's like a child and this mimics a child being caught red handed, no defence for what they've done so they cry as they learn that crying gets sympathy.

@consideringtakingthetreedown I'm sorry your mum behaved the way she did.

I might be being paranoid here but watch out in case your mum is setting up your daughter. It's just that when mine used to come round to my house things would get accidentally broken, drinks would be spilled, things would be dropped and they'd all be blamed on my dog. She used to come round once a week for about 30 minutes and it got to the stage where every single time an incident would occur but I saw the way she'd hold her tea cup when my dog went over to see her, he's a bit giddy but he's never knocked a drink out of anyone elses hand, or broken anything, unless she was involved.

I hope I am being paranoid but just in case. And believe your daughter if her version of events differs.

@consideringtakingthetreedown I'm sorry, I feel bad for suggesting that she did it on purpose. I hope i'm wrong because I don't want to cause friction.

It's just my mum has history of doing odd things and I don't know if it's a common theme. Thinking about what I said I remembered that as well as things breaking things being a theme things also went missing. When I was a child I had toys go missing and it turned out she'd given my things away to cousins but when I got older (teenage) things went missing that never ever turned up. When I would comment she'd say that it was no wonder I couldn't find anything in my messy room. But thing was, I was terribly messy (really very untidy, can't see floor space etc) but the things that went missing I knew exactly where i'd put them as they were of some sort of high value to me and they'd been put away for safe keeping.

One odd recent (ish) incident springs to mind, it's the closest I have of proof that she meddles, and that was when I left home I took with my a set of wooden bricks I had when I was very young. I had occasionally got them out as an adult and played with them for a bit of fun but not when she was around and not for gosh, 15 or so years. They were all shapes and sizes but when they were put into their wooden box they fitted together a bit like a jigsaw and made a picture that matched the one on the lid, it's the only way they'd all go in. It's usually knocking around at home in a cupboard wherever i've lived but never on display.

Fast forward to about five years ago, my mum said that she'd found something of mine, I was curious so asked what it was, she made this big show of presenting me with a tiny blue wooden brick. It was a brick from my toy set. She said she found it when she was having a clear out but I knew for a fact that i'd not left it behind those 25 years ago.

I have no proof that she took it from my home but I don't know how else she would have had it. And if her version was true and she's found this inch long wooden block 20 odd years later how would she even have known what it was and whether or not i'd still remember it. It looks like nothing on it's own. So basically i'm probably being daft and paranoid when it comes to mums and other peoples stuff but it's not entirely without basis. I am really sorry if i've upset you though consideringtakingthetreedown that wasn't my intention.

I would find alternative childcare now consideringtakingthetreedown.
Your child also needs emotionally healthy models as grandparents and your mother is clearly not.

Your mother is not a suitable person to be doing such a role too because she was a rubbish parent to you also when you were growing up. I also thought along the same lines as Nora; she is setting up your DD here along similar lines as to how you were when you were a child.

Its always your things that get broken as well, its never a personal item of hers.

Considering I feel your pain as my Mum is never wrong either. It's so draining

Nora I was just reading this article and it reminded me of your DM and your work colleague. It may be a different situation entirely but I thought I’d share it in case it’s any use as it would explain why you feel your safe space has been infiltrated

medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

@NeverlandDreams Thank you for sharing that. Wow, that was an eye opener. I've heard the term flying monkeys but I didn't realise how calculated and twisted it all was. I do like the writers explanation about why responding with integrity is best, I failed quite badly at that

Hopefully my colleague cutting her off has done the trick because other than that I do/did feel very safe at work. I think I mentioned before that my mum doesn't know the names of any of my friends or my other colleagues (she wasn't interested, something I now see as a bonus). I think the only other person she could get access to his my OH's step mum as they swapped addresses to exchange Christmas cards. I would have said that she wouldn't go that far but after reading that article I just don't know, plus I didn't think she'd turn up at as strangers house so who knows. It's very creepy.

Nora it is quite scary but i cant count how many times my DM has done this particularly when I was a child. My DM did approach my DHs parents and my BILs all whom she has rarely met but managed to get hold of their addresses. So it is a possibility that she might try your OH step mum. After all she tried a complete stranger! My DM wrote a letter and sent a small gift to DPiL and BILs. The letters were oh so nice and caring about each of them (even tho she’d showed little interest in them before). I think the letters were meant to be ‘Im so nice you can’t believe anything Neverland says about me’ (i’d actually not said anything!) and also testing the water to see if they’d become her messengers (flying monkeys). When they said they’d received a letter. I told my in laws that there was conflict and I felt the letter was linked to that. I think they didn’t want to get involved in any conflict so they didnt respond other than maybe a quick ‘thanks’ text but managed to avoid any further discussion. BILs asked me to thank my DM for the letter and gift. I said I would (didn’t mention anything that was going on). Therefore she didn’t get a response there either. She’s left them all alone since her initial approach failed. So I hope she views them as unsuitable for her purposes! 🤞🏻Let’s hope!

Nora I think u handled the situation with your work colleague really well btw! And I’m so glad your other colleague backed you up and told your colleague to stay out of it!