"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Manon

All occasions are about her and what she wants. It is not your fault she is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone like your mother and I would no longer bother with her.

I think your dad is your mothers enabler. Disordered of thinking people like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them, he made his choice here and chose her. He is himself a weak bystander of a man.

Yeah, I think even family holidays always had to revolve around her and what she wanted to do. She chose where we went, what we did and when, where we ate.

I remember one year we went on a huge holiday all of us, Aunties and Uncles and cousins and she tried to dictate that but nobody fell into line. Everything was discussed normally, 'what would everyone like to do today' and then what the majority wanted we did. But she spent most of the two weeks in a strop, whinging about being dictated to and how she was never going away with them again etc. Ironically that was my favourite holiday of my entire childhood, it's such a fond memory that I'll have forever. It was fun.

Attila- If my nieces were given their gift cards by my sister ExH, do I accept the gift from my sister to my son?

Again how do you know that her ex H passed these gift cards onto his children?. Also these have never been acknowledged by them in any form.

I would not accept that gift for your son from someone who chooses to have no contact with you as his mother. What is her angle here?. How would you explain this gift from her to him?. It is not a gift if such contact is both unwarranted and unwanted, its loaded with obligation and control.

manon  your mum is clearly unwilling/unable to think of anyone except herself.

I wonder if you could give her your itinerary in advance when you visit? Manage her expectations? Maybe a quick pre-visit text outlining your plans, telling her to have a chill on the nights you're going to be out and not to bother with dinner. If she protests, you could then offer to come another time, when she's more willing to accommodate her guests' wishes? 

It sounds like she's horrendously anxious about losing control of situations, hence the staying in all Christmas thing. My MIL is a bit like this, my best friend's MIL also. They have to be centre stage and in charge of proceedings, otherwise they lose their shit spectacularly 

Attila- I can only assume they have been acknowledged as my mother told me that my sister had left our gifts with her as we had left my nieces with exh? So they’ve definitely received it through the post. But obviously that doesn’t mean that they’ve been passed to the children.

I can only assume that she sent a gift to look good to others? You’re right in that I wouldn’t know what to say to my son.

I’m sorry for repeating myself, but I really dislike the thought that my nieces think I don’t want to know them According to my mother, that is what my sister has been telling them.

Yes, yes MutantDisco! She becomes almost hysterically anxious if she's not in control of every situation. Like I said, I believe she has undiagnosed mental health problems but will never go and get the help she needs because she can't admit that she has flaws. So it's a vicious circle. She ruminates constantly over the most minor things, and I am her sounding board/emotional support which I find so draining. Ive tried detaching from that, but she cottoned on and started shouting 'your not listening to me, why does nobody listen to me?'. She has never never ever provided emotional support to me, or listened when I have problems. It's a total one way street, I feel like I'm her parent sometimes.

I'm also concerned about her treatment of my DF. She is becoming more and more nasty towards him, because I think in his own way he's attempting to wrestle back control. He's also getting older and becoming quite cantankerous lol, so he answers back a lot more. This, I think combined with me and DB sort of starting to drift away are making her worse.DB already quite obviously prefers his in laws.

Manon

Read up on narcissistic personality disorder re your mother and see how much of that relates to your own experiences of her. It is not your fault she is like this and has never received nor sought the necessary help. If she is a narcissist then therapy (years of it as well would be needed rather than months) won't be of much help because they think that they are doing nothing wrong in the first place. Narcissists are therefore very poor candidates for and in therapy.

Your mother likes having you around because you are giving her narcissistic supply by listening and being her emotional punchbag/sounding board. Its not your fault she is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. Too late your dad (who has enabled her throughout) is perhaps realising what she is like and is finding a voice of his own. I would continue to distance myself from someone like your mother as your brother has done; its the only way you can maintain a sense of self and sanity.

Whyareweallhere

I would keep document evidence of what you have sent your nieces then track them down when they are of age. You can show them that you tried and sent items to them via their dad as per their mothers instructions.

What is your sister's ex husband like, do you and he have get on well with each other?. Has he commented ever about the lack of contact his children have with you as their aunt?.

Attila- That’s a good idea to keep documents. But do i send any more in the future or stop now?

Re: Ex husband- sister told him not to bother with us years ago and he listened to her. It’s a shame.

Apparently within the gifts there’s also a card wrote out by the kids to my son. (My Mother can tell by handwriting) what do I do with it?

Sorry for all the questions, I’m looking in to seeing a counsellor!

Im not sure that she is a full blown narcissist, but her mother definitely was a text book one and I think her sister is one as well. They were a narc family, lots of scapegoating and emotional abuse. Even now they never argue, they present the ideal perfect extended family but in reality there is lots bitching behind backs etc. Nothing is ever said out loud though, but there is so much resentment.

By contrast my Dad can have full on blazing rows with his brother, then then laugh it off and are fine again. I'd imagine this is more 'normal'.

Manon have you read anything about covert narcissism, also called vulnerable narcissism? My mother also didn't seem to fit the classic NPD image, although it was clear that she was somewhere in the ballpark, but when I read about covert narcissism that fit perfectly.

Manon further to what toomuch has said, Craig Malkin (search for him on YouTube - he’s written a book too) describes narcissism as a type of addiction in which the sufferer is addicted to feeling special in some way.

I think it’s quite a helpful way of looking at it, because a) by describing it as an addiction it attaches less blame and makes it easier to see how the narcissist has become that way b) it incorporates all the different ways that people like to feel special, including being helpful, being outwardly ‘perfect’ or martyring themselves (this might be the ‘covert narcissist’) c) I think it makes it easier to identify any minor traits of narcissism that the person who has had to live with the narcissist may have inadvertently picked up (sometimes called ‘fleas’) - and thus it makes those traits easier to eliminate and d) thinking of it as an addiction makes it easier to see how the narcissist puts their mode of feeling special above anything else in their lives, in much the same way as an alcoholic always puts drink first.

Oh yes, martyrdom! She's an expert at that. Going back to Christmas, she does everything. Prepares all the veg, cooks all the meat etc refuses all offers of help but then moans about how she has to do everything. It's the same with holidays, she loves to organise any holiday that she goes on. Right down to micromanaging every last little aspect of it, the it moans about it. How she has to do everything, no on earth helps her. But she won't accept the help. Woe betide you though if you go on holiday with her and dare to criticise something about it, say you don't think the hotel is up to much for example. That's a personal insult...

Ive been reading the older versions of this thread, the title'I took you to Stately Homes' resonates with me a lot because that's her to a tee. I said in my original thread, growing up we only ever did things she wanted to do. Consequently I can only remember visiting a zoo once, despite living only 20 minutes from one of the best in the UK! I was never ever taken swimming and only went in a pool on holiday, I'm now in my 30's and can't swim. We rarely went to the cinema unless It was something she wanted to see, otherwise friends parents took us. We never ever went to a Pantomime either, the pantos I saw were either with school or with Friends parents. She would constantly make promises and not keep them. I remember really wanting to see a particular Disney film, nagging to see it and she agreed we'd go that Saturday but when it came around we just didn't go. No explanations, she just didn't want to go and so we didn't. She'd agreed to it to shut me up.

Ive asked her about this. We never went swimming because she doesn't like water. We never went to Pantomimes because she doesn't like them. But isn't part of having kids doing you don't really want to do or like? I see people with kids on Facebook doing all this stuff, pantos, swimming, rubbish kids films, crazy golf. I can't imagine any of them really enjoy it do they? But it makes the kids happy so they suck it up for them.

Even now I feel guilty saying all this. As long as I tow the line, don't question her and agree with everything she says and do everything she wants we get on like house on fire. But I don't really want to tow the line. I want to be me..

Every thing you say is valid manon. Parenting should be selfless. We might enjoy the crazy golf or not, ultimately we are there for our children.
It's hard not to bitter 💐

isn't part of having kids doing you don't really want to do or like?

I agree. I sometimes got the feeling off my mum that she was angry at me because by asking for stuff she didn't want to do, I was getting in the way of her idealised vision of motherhood where there would never be any conflict or disagreement. Or to be a bit less charitable about it, she wanted the glory of being the perfect mother without actually having to make any efforts in that direction

It's interesting... I used to work with someone who probably wasn't NPD but definitely had narcissistic tendencies, and we were all discussing where to go for food on the Christmas night out, and someone said McDonalds and I said christ no, and he was like "oh wait till you have children, you'll change your tune then ahahaha!" It was as if he saw my opinion of McDonalds=yuck as some sort of expression of my identity, that there would be some hypocrisy in saying you didn't like McDonalds and then taking your kids there for a happy meal anyway. I wonder if they have a sort of blind spot about that, that you might not like doing something but you might do it anyway, that personal preference, identity and morality aren't all the same thing? IDK.

Manon I wouldn't say it in that way, that you get on like a house on fire, as it's totally one sided... basically she likes you as long as you do whatever she wants. Well, no wonder! I guess it would be fun to have someone always do what you wanted, as long as you were able to convince yourself that it's what they wanted to... but narcissists don't really have a concept of that I think, they just assume that because they want something to happen it must be Right and True and the only way.

Sparebedroom hiya!

the narcissist puts their mode of feeling special above anything else in their lives, in much the same way as an alcoholic always puts drink first

Ooh, yes, this makes sense. My mum was sometimes allright, it wasn't wall to wall misery. And part of that was that like Manon I got skilled at anticipating what she wanted but I think it's also that, that if she was getting enough narcissistic supply generally, she was OK. That's the crazy-making thing, isn't it? You have a lot of influence over their narcissistic supply, as a child of a narcissistic parent, but you don't have complete control, because obviously there's other stuff in the outside world that impacts on their self esteem. It's intermittent reinforcement, and it trains you faster than anything else to search for the solution to their deficit of narcissistic supply and plug it up for them. Doing well in school, saying the right thing at the right time, making your own needs as small as possible... whatever it takes.

I'm absolutely shattered today. I posted a few weeks ago about my mother totally over reacting to me getting the time wrong of my son's school play. My brother and family were home for Xmas so avoided her but I knew she would strike once they went home.

And strike she did. They were only gone home a day and she called over. Think she sensed I had enough this time and attacked me in every which way possible.

She told me I neglected the kids, that I have personality disorder (she looked it up and I'm the narcissist according to her), my husband is afraid of me so agrees with everything and how I've fallen out with everyone (she's the only one I've fallen out with, she has fallen out with both her brothers, hates her sister and has 1-2 friends. I have loads of really good, supportive friends).

Specifically she said DD looks dirty and unkempt (DD has dyspraxia and SPD so has huge meltdowns about clothes and I often give in to her even though for special occasions I always try to get her to make an effort. DS, DH and I are always well turned out)

She also said she doesn't care what I do and her only concern are the grandkids.

She says I have severe mental health problems on a par with my cousins wife (who's had to give up work, doesn't wash, look after the kids and can't leave the house by herself). I work full time, shower every day and take care of the kids etc).

She said my H won't say this to me because he is terrified of me and that I'll leave him. H is furious as he is extremely assertive and is in no way afraid of telling me what he thinks (to point of being aggressive at times).

It is my birthday tomorrow so not sure if it is timed to coincide with that.

So apart from being devastated (I bawled all last night and lots of today secretly in work, she left the house last night with not one jot of emotion) does anyone have any advice on where I go from here

Thanks for listening

So sorry for your experiences, I've been reading, I'm struggling with Christmas still and it's going to take a while for me to stop triggering and to calm down, and feel ready to post about these issues again, and indeed my own. You have my heartfelt very best wishes and I think of you posters a lot. My heart goes out to you all 💖

*Steve" take care of yourself, you've had a rough one.

NK you know that all the stuff your mother says is bullshit, designed to upset you, right? You're a perfectly decent mum, you're not mentally ill, you're on good terms with your friends, and you don't have a personality disorder.
Sadly, because we grew up with these people, they can still get under our skins because we're so programmed to feel like the sky is falling in when they are unhappy with us (because as a child, when your mother was unhappy with you, she would have made your life shit). So even though rationally you know it's a whole bunch of gaslighting and projection and not a scrap of it is true, it's still upsetting.

Your mother says horrible things to you, designed to hurt. I'd be very surprised if she doesn't also say them to other people when she chooses to - that smear campaign that you talked about. You can't win. So don't play. Next time she starts, you stand up and say to her you've heard enough and it's time for her to go. Or don't even let her in. What's the worst that could happen? She'll tell you how awful you are? No different to now except she'll be outside and you won't be able to hear her. She'll badmouth you to the family? She probably already is. You need to start protecting yourself. She's not going to change.

Thank you Steve for such a lovely genuine message and I'm so sorry you are going through your own stuff.

Thank you Toomuch. No she won't change but attacking my patenting was the lowest blow for me. She has worked in the disability sector for years so knows what meltdowns are like. She is beyond nasty. Some thing has changed for me this time. Enough is enough

Just so you know, I'm talking to MNHQ regarding the deletion of my account. The vitriol thrown my way this past few days, a lot by the same posters across threads, is just too much. I love this board and been here many years but enough is enough.

The SH threads have been my saviour over the years, and helped me realise my childhood was abusive on many levels, and while my recovery is going to take a long time it's so much further along thanks to SH.

Thank you to anyone who has given me advice over the years. There are a few posters who I have the utmost respect, gratitude, admiration, love, and simple thanks for, for their selflessness and support. You know who you are.

My earlier post tells you how I feel about everyone posting in these threads, be it now, past or in the future, and that stance is unwavering. I will read, purely this thread, after my account deletion is processed. It's truly not a dramatic notion for me to say much love to all of you, and I hope you all find your answers. I'll be thinking of you. It breaks my heart to leave.

• S. x

'Idealised version of motherhood'. Wow, yes, that's a great way of describing it. Ive often thought that that my mum has difficulty managing her expectations, and once she has something in her head if it doesn't go the way she planned she can't handle it. But that's life.

Children are challenging. Toddlers have tantrums, older kids push boundaries, teenagers are stroppy and self centred. It's how they find out who they are.

Steve

So very sorry re mumsnet. Do keep reading this thread for support as and when it is needed.

Take care of yourself going forward

So sorry to read that Steve. No one deserves that.