"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you for replies to me. Yes I agree, it's probably a hard thing to see for me being in the middle of it all and much clearer from the outside. One thing that keeps me hanging in there is I honestly don't believe my parents are manipulating my kids or doing anything to me through them deliberately. In fact they've said a few times, when doing something lovely for my daughter "I wish we could've done this for you and been like this with you". Life was hard for all of us when I was younger, for them as well as me but the only difference was they took their stress out on me and made my life harder rather than protecting me from it. But their life is easy now, they are retired, have comfortable amounts of money and live alone with no children nearby and only see their grandkids a few times a year so they are much freer to be nice to them. I always felt like they saw my kids as a kind of re-do of me, in that they get to show me how they would've been if they could and to get it right this time. I do get the feeling they are trying to get it right and be better this time around. Which would be fine if that's how they also were with me but they don't care about trying to make amends to me or even acknowledging there was even an issue. They're also very judgemental of my parenting, always making out that I'm falling short which is hilarious considering how they parented me. It's like they've forgotten everything.

Thank you though, everyone, for being so kind. I always worried that, as an adult, if I ever brought these thoughts up to anybody they'd wonder why I was obsessing over things that happened so long ago. I've thought that myself too over this last year! But I am a survivor, that's the way I should look at it. Every time I go back home I remember how low I got as a teen and how close I got to looking for a way out and how grateful I am that I chose to run away instead of taking a more permanent solution, because my life now with my babies is everything I ever dreamed of back there in that horrible house. Thank you all for listening to me

Hello everyone, I hope you don’t mind me posting here because my experience is a little different to most of yours in that I’ve recently realised that I am the grandchild of a narcissistic family — if that makes sense? And I’m starting to notice that some of my own mental health problems, and my really difficult relationship with my sibling, are the result of this.

My Dad and his many siblings have always had a really difficult relationship, very much tied to their mother (my grandmother) who has always had constantly changing ‘favourites’ and who has fostered a really competitive and toxic sibling environment. They are still embroiled in their own self-obsessed and unending dramas, to the extent that they are less than interested in anything I do (unless it’s something they can boast about, but even then they would never contact me directly, just use it for their own self-promotion). I really see very little of any of them, including my Dad.

Meanwhile, though, I cannot find a way to have a functioning relationship with my DSis, even though both of us try to work at it in our own ways. She has always been hyper critical of me, but wanted to keep me close provided I’m willing to just tag along and have no opinions of my own. Through my 20s and 30s I grew a lot in confidence and sort of struck out on my own, and we’ve always had an up and down relationship as a consequence. I think she has some narcissistic tendencies and she’s sabotaged many important life events for me (wedding, birth of children, etc.) and made difficult times even more challenging (family deaths, miscarriage) with what I consider selfish behaviour. But I think she has many great qualities too and my children love her. It’s just as though there’s something missing and when we disagree she genuinely can’t understand things from my perspective. As long as I don’t disagree with her or challenge her in any way or inadvertently cause her to feel envious then we can get on OK.

Is there anyone else here who would see themselves as the next generation of narcissistic abuse? And does anyone have any suggestions for good reading about narcissistic families? I’m just getting started thinking about this, so I only know what i’ve googled!

Now that you've found this thread, pineapple22, don't forget that there's always a sympathetic ear here if you need one and at the very least, go for that counselling. It might help you to develop healthy strategies to deal with your parents. Good luck.

Morning all!

DH has gone back to work so I'm solo with the kids. You'd want to see the house, it's a tip

Laura
I sometimes think it may just be me as I have two older siblings; one doesn't speak to her anymore and is exactly like her and the eldest is trying to help me with this but doesn't seem to understand the situation very well

It's common in dysfunctional families for different siblings to play different roles, with favouritism and scapegoating meaning that the siblings have very different experiences of childhood. In any case though you mention that your elder sister isn't in contact with your mother - I think, if you need objective evidence that all is not well in your family, that tells you what you need to know.

Someone on another thread today said a brilliant thing: she's not listening to your words, stop listening to hers, listen to her behaviour, and communicate with her through your behaviour. Your mother has made it clear through her behaviour that she considers it more important to have you by her side, whenever she wants, to do the work of regulating her emotions for her, and she considers it more important than your friends or your coursework or whatever other priorities you might have. You need to (IMO) show with your own behaviour that there's a limit to the amount of time and effort you can give her, and if that doesn't suit, then she is not going to get to punish you by complaining about it and giving you guilt trips. You plaster a smile onto your face, you tell her what you're willing to do for her, and if she doesn't like it, you go "oh well, never mind, see you another time then" and you go off and do the other stuff you have to be getting on with. If she guilt trips you, you can say to her, listen, let's talk when you're feeling more positive, because I don't think this conversation is helping either of us - and make yourself scarce. Put limits on your phone time with her if that's an issue - before I went NC with my mother I used to say that the phone had a dodgy battery, and after 20 minutes or so I would just hang up and then blame the battery - I never found a polite way to get her off the phone, she just didn't stop talking.

I hope some of that might have been useful - and please don't be sorry about long posts, this place is all about long posts, and it wasn't even that long!

LilleVen

I feel ashamed of myself that I didn't cut contact with him before this year

This is just anecdotal, but I've noticed on here that the more abusive people's parents were, the longer it took for the scales to fall from their eyes. I think that as humans we're all programmed to seek affection from our parents and it's like, the less you got, the more you look for it. Don't feel ashamed
You sound as if you've got the measure of what all went on, and I'm sorry that you have had so much trouble with health anxiety although it sounds like that may have been the catalyst for changing things. You might be interested in The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk - he writes about how childhood trauma manifests itself in anxiety and other mental health issues and also in physical illness.

What you say about the alcoholism is really interesting. My grandad was an alcoholic, my mother didn't talk all that much about him or her childhood but what I do know suggests that he had a very hard childhood and that in turn he was abusive and neglectful towards his children. I think that knowing the abuser was abused themselves is interesting, it's an explanation, it's not an excuse. It's interesting also your point about the alcohol being the scapegoat - my mother was treated alcohol like an enemy you hate so much you won't even give it the satisfaction of saying how much you hate it. "I like a social drink as much as anyone," my mother would say, sipping her annual Bacardi and coke. "I just don't need to drink for effect." I think my mother felt that, as long as nobody in the house was an alcoholic, and the bills were paid and the house was clean and there was food to eat, what else could you ask for? And I agree that my childhood was physically a lot more comfortable than hers was but psychologically it was very similar, I suspect, because she was the kind of person who could start a fight in an empty house - which, ironically, is what she used to say about my granda. I think a lot of people tend to scapegoat the alcohol, it allows them to make their way through the cycle of abuse without even really needing to apologise. It wasn't them, it was the drink.

WhiskyandRed Out of the Fog is a good website for narcissistic family stuff, there's a lot of stuff on there about the "reasoning" behind it and that sort of thing. Otherwise, the books in the OP are all pretty good - Toxic Families by Susan Forward is the main one I think.

I have to say, its interesting just reading your post and Laura's to note that you both feel as if there's a communication problem, her with her mother, you with your sister. If you could just get them to understand your point of view, you feel like they would stop their unreasonable behaviour and just start being consistently nice people instead of blowing hot and cold the whole time. But what if that is actually who they are? If the good behaviour is always conditional on you doing what they want and having no opinions of your own, how nice are they really? I notice you say that your children love her - I wonder how you feel about her yourself, never mind love because it's a very loaded word that one. Do you like her? Does she make your life better? Because if she doesn't, you don't have to facilitate the relationship between her and your kids. You're allowed to put your own preferences first, and in any case, the friendship of someone who blows hot and cold like your sister, what is worth anyway?

@SingingLily

Emotional madness is a great way to describe it, and I find your description 'detoxing' strangely quite comforting. Thank you.

My mum has never been an affectionate or loving hugger but I do have memories of her sort of hugging/holding me. From what I can manage to recall though the only memories I have of her doing it were when my dad was loosing his shit. I think I was being 'used' to get at dad in some way though.

Talking of affection type stuff, about 18 months ago when I first started backing off a bit I think she sensed it, she started to behave quite weird in that she'd look at me sideways and almost quizzical/judgey but she never said anything, nothing obvious anyway. Then one day as I was leaving she ever so casually went to say 'I love....' then did a little shudder and stopped dead. I actually believe that she was going to say that she loved me. She didn't though, she stopped short. Apart from that near miss I have no recollection of her ever telling me that she loves me. (Or saying anything nice really but that's a whole other story).

I feel a lot better so far today. I spent the last few days going over and over in my head hurting myself again with how much she hurt me over the past year. Week after week for all that time I was so utterly desperate for her to just wish me well or say anything nice but she didn't. Today I am a lot calmer and can see a bit clearer and I think I must have exhausted myself mentally by hoping for so long. I did also know in my heart that if she failed me after my needs were so obvious that it would mean our relationship as it was would be over so maybe some of my upset was grief/acceptance.

A total subject change here but i've ordered myself a really large desk diary, a nice fun colourful sort. I've fancied one for ages but that's the exact sort of thing that my mum would have not been able to resist having a right good nosey at. I just felt the need to break another of her 'spells'.

@toomuchtooold

This is just anecdotal, but I've noticed on here that the more abusive people's parents were, the longer it took for the scales to fall from their eyes.

I think I've seen this in myself, especially where my abusive F was concerned. It's so sad, but he died 21 years ago yesterday and it's like he still messes with my head. My DB is still under his thrall.

The scales first started to fall off my eyes when we were in the process of discussing the needs of young children. One of the needs highlighted was the need to feel safe, and it hit me that it was a feeling I was entirely unfamiliar with.

And then when I had my own DDs, I was finally forced to accept how messed up my childhood was. I would never want them to be afraid like I was as a child.

Marking a place until I've read through the thread. Hope that's ok.

My mum has got a lovely new habit of updating me on the life of my ex. He is someone I was friends with for over a decade before we were a couple so I’ve known his children since they were toddlers. It was a terrible wrench when he was unfaithful to me and of course I don’t really see his children now.

He has a girlfriend (not the woman he was unfaithful with) but I’d really rather not hear about him, how happy he is looking, how nice his new girlfriend is etc. I’ve told mum this on possibly 20 occasions when she’s given me at update.

The last update was on Christmas Day (!) where she just had to inform me that she’d seen the girlfriend in church and had “had” to go over and ask her how my ex boyfriend’s children are :-/ Then she was cross that the girlfriend hadn’t said much to her (bloody good for her!)

I said again that I don’t care for these updates.

There’s a 40+ year history of spitefulness towards me so I’m just sharing to get it out of my head.

Bumping this thread for the poster named shampoo.

👍

Hello all, i’m in a dilemma.

I have been no contact with my sister since spring last year. I sent gift vouchers to my nieces for Christmas through the post.

My mother has told me that my sister has left Christmas presents with her for me to pick up. The presents are for myself my OH and my son.

My dilemma is, if I don’t accept the gift to my son, then my nieces gifts may not be accepted from us next time.

Actually, i made a mistake, it hasn’t been no contact as I did try to contact her regarding my nieces.

Were these items you sent acknowledged by either your sister or her children this time around?.

I think you need to look further again at why you decided to contact your sister regarding her children. No contact is really that and that includes no gifts. It may well be that you are flogging a dead horse here in any case and I would not actually send anything further to your nieces.

I would also think twice about going to your mother's to collect your sister's gifts too as your mother is being used here as your sister's flying monkey. Why has she allowed herself to be used in this way too?.

Attila- I sent the Christmas gift cards to her ex husband as that is what my sister told me to do for my nieces birthdays.

My mother then contacted me to say that my sister had left gifts for us with my mother as we had left my nieces gifts with her ex husband?

The reason I contacted her as I asked to meet up with her to find out why she stopped us from seeing my nieces but she never replied.

So I thought it might be best to just send my nieces cards and gift cards as I felt sorry that they shouldn’t have anything because of the way my sister is.

I am confused why she would send gifts to us when she doesn’t want anything to do with us.

"I am confused why she would send gifts to us when she doesn’t want anything to do with us"

I do not think your sister is going to let go of you that easily even though you decided to have no contact with her. She has probably done so because of societal convention (i.e. not wanting to look bad in other people's eyes), your mother and her ex husband who may still have some influence here.

The gifts you sent went to your nieces via her ex husband as per her instructions, that is just wrong on so many levels. Honestly I would not bother sending anything further from now on because its not appreciated. I would also not collect any gifts from your sister from your mother's house either. Ignore their game playing rooted in power and control here and do not engage them in any way.

Attila- Thankyou for your words of advice, I really do appreciate it.

I just feel so sorry for the kids. But I suppose it isn’t me that’s made it this way, it is my sister.

Also, I worry that my nieces will think that we didn’t want to know them by stopping the gifts.

My guess is that sadly your nieces do not know that you sent them anything at all. If it was all sent to her ex husband via her, how do you know these were actually passed onto these children?.

We posted them ourselves through mail to her exhusband. (That’s what she told us to do for birthdays)

But again, were these ever passed onto these children?

Thats true, I actually don’t know.

Hi everyone. I dont think my experience is as bad as some of the others on here, but my DM is difficult and always has been. I started a thread about her in AIBU before Xmas about how I was angry about her lack of emotional suport towards me, despite being expected to provide it for her. I was directed towards this thread, but never got around to posting, however since then she has managed to ruin Christmas for me and I just need to vent about it.

So I suspect she has some undiagnosed mental health issues due to her upbringing, and this has led to her having very low self esteem. She deals with this by being very controlling. She is also sulky, unpredictable and moody. When she's in a good mood and in control she's fabulous, when she's not she's a nightmare.

To cut a long story short, we have always done Christmas her way. We've had it in her house, she's cooked the dinner and acted like the perfect 50s housewife etc. Then the family came to our house in the evening, for drinks and nibbles etc. However over the last few years things have changed, my DB how has a partner and he has decided to alternate between families for Xmas each year, my Aunties and Uncles are grandparents now and wish to see their grandchildren over the period and can't come over like they used to . All perfectly normal, things change, people's circumstances change. DM can't deal with it. This year she made a huge fuss about doing it 'her way', she wasn't pleasing other people.

She made a big thing about how she wasn't leaving her house over Christmas and basically told us we couldn't either. On Xmas eve DF and I decided to go to the local social club for a festive drink, we asked Dm if she wanted to come, she didn't. So we went anyway, we were gone two hours tops. When we came back she was in a huff with us for going and leaving her, then I made DF and I a curry for tea. I asked DM if she wanted some. She said no, she wasn't hungry. Then she goes and makes beans on toast and eats it slowly whilst sighing and

Xmas days comes. Lovely day, Auntie, DB and his DP all around. At about 6pm we decide to go and see Uncle who would always come over but can't anymore due to his grandchildren sleeping etc. DM doesn't want to go, tells us we can't go, we go anyway. She chases us half way down the garden telling us we are all 'rude'. Then goes back in the house. DB furious, sends her a text telling her so which she ignores. Lovely evening, gone two hours tops again. Has epic Facebook rant slagging us off which everyone she knows sees. Fucking embarrassing and mortifying.

Boxing Day. DM in a huff. Refuses to apologise to DB. We go out for tea at another relatives, DM sits there all evening with her arms folded. Face like a slapped arse etc. Doesn't engage in much conversation and when asked what's wrong says she's unwell. We go home early.

New Years Eve. Refuses to go out at all, refuses two invitations, one for a party another for a small gathering with friends. Yet more 'I want to do it my way'. DF and I suck it up and sit there in near silence whilst she watches the soaps.See new year in and go to bed.

So basically she's pissed off with us for defying her. She's made up with DB now, but she's ensured that they will probably never spend Xmas with us again.

Sorry for the dissertation. I needed to just get this off my chest. Even now though I'm questining whether we did anything wrong!

I think you must have the patience of a saint! And your DF (assuming fiancé)... what the hell must he be thinking!
The only thing you can do is choose how to react in future. You may wish to invite her to yours (you don't have to, she has behaved appallingly) but hell would be freezing over before I spent Xmas at hers ever again. I can't believe you stayed for NY after all that!!

Yes, DF is my Dad. Christmas is all about her and what she wants to do. She thinks everyone should really dress up.I stopped doing this years ago, but for a long time we were expected to dress up and wear full make up etc as if we were going out somewhere posh. It wasn't practical at all and so uncomfortable, now I wear a Christmas jumper and leggings and if she doesnt like it tough.

I told her that some people don't even get dressed on Xmas day and stay in the pyjamas and she was mortified at the thought.

It's like she can't manage her expectations and expects everyone to fall into line.