"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi everyone,
I am at the end of my rope with my mum and seriously don't know how much more I can take. Sorry for long post.

I am an only child and as a young child had a relatively happy childhood until roughly about 10 or 11. I was aware my mum was moody and huffy however her mental health began to deteriorate around then and even although (due to me being pathetic and too scared to leave) I stayed until I was 28 (I'm 38 now) my years living with her were a living hell. it got worse as time went on. She had mood swings like nothing else, would go in to huffs for no reason at all; she'd just shut down and stop talking to me then provoke an argument out of thin air, tell me I was big headed when things went well for me (I was never allowed to be happy or proud of myself for anything), she would verbally tear in to me saying things like 'you are lagging behind', 'not much of the big shot now eh!', she would provoke an argument and no matter how bad I tried to bite my tongue she would make it impossible not to react. Then she would take a huff, could go on for days with her shooting me glares playing the victim. if I tried to reason with her or talk to her all i'd get is her putting me on a guilt trip about how bad 'I'd wronged her' and making me feel like I was the bad one, and she was damn good at it too. She would make me say sorry even in times where I deliberately bit my tongue and sometimes even remain in the huff or say things like 'after how I behaved I don't deserve such and such'. She is always the victim and will twist the story to suit herself if ever questioned. In her eyes i am a bad daughter and she holds grudges for stuff said in arguments years ago.

My dad as much as I love him, was useless and can't stand up to her. He always came in on her side no matter what, including times he witnessed her start an argument out of nowhere. I hold major resentment for all the times he just sat back and let her say what she wanted to me or give me the silent treatment for days. Anyone I confided in about it would always ask why my dad never stepped in, I was embarrassed that a grown man didn't and even would step in to back her up. How I always wished for a sibling who would understand!

She had me suicidal on many occasions, just lashed out verbally when things didn't go her way, if something displeased her all hell would break loose. I am now married with 3 kids and vow NEVER to put them through what my parents did. My husband doesn't like my mum and I don't blame him, he's witnessed her behaviour first hand but he understands how hard it is. He has been my rock throughout her mood swings which still happen even now Ive been living away from her for 10 years.

In a nutshell tonight she upset me and I'm livid. My dad unfortunately hasn't been keeping too well and she placed a demand on me after a day of being as nice as anything (manipulation) and when I told her no she threw toys out pram and said 'so you don't care what happens to us eh'. She's been a nightmare recently because she can't cope with my dad not keeping well. She always wants to be centre of attention and can't handle not being centre of attention.

Have totally had enough

Don't be sorry for a long post, @Whiskeycat. We've all done it! I think you really needed to get that off your chest, if only to get your thoughts into some sort of order. I'm just sorry for what you are going through. Your mum sounds just like mine - mine has all the emotional age of a toddler - and your dad sounds just like mine too, capable of affection but too weak to stand up to her even though he knows what she inflicted on you. The furthest mine ever went was to roll his eyes behind her back when she was having one of her tantrums but that was it.

Your mother should have nurtured you and cared for you as a child. She failed you. Your father should have supported and protected you. He failed you too. You deserve better. However - and I'm sorry if I sound hard, Whiskeycat, given that your dad isn't very well - they do deserve each other. He knows what she is. He has placated her and pandered to her for years. You are his daughter, his flesh and blood, yet all throughout your childhood years (from the age of 10 or 11, therefore the age when you dared to start expressing yourself), he let you - a defenceless child - bear the brunt of her vengeful silences and her rage. All credit to you, then, for your determination to break the cycle and be a good parent to your own children.

Do your parents live nearby? Do you have much contact with them? Do you have to have much contact with them?

@Whiskeycat we all write long posts here as we all have very long stories to tell!
I think you are well within your rights to release yourself from them. Do you feel a sense of obligation to have contact because of their physical and mental health issues?

I tried to remain in contact with my mum but doing so through the lense of 'but she has mental health problems' but it became impossible and I had to release myself on the basis we just happen to be related...easier said than done I know

I don't know if anyone here can relate but perhaps you can.

I'm being pressured to return to my parents due to my health worsening by Drs but also social workers who see a loving, kind family when it's not. I've tried to distance myself but have been told categorically recently that due to changes in social care I must enter into mediation and return to my family as I cannot afford the contribution for carer and every day living anymore.

I tried and it went as expected and really upset me.

Despite so called confidentiality my parents have been able to access information about my health when in hospital. My last admission the staff went on all the time about me going back to them so they become my carers as they "sound so lovely and caring" and I've no one else.

They want me because they want my benefit money.
Not that they've told anyone that.

No one believes that I can't go back because everyone needs proof of what's happening but there is none as they put on this act around people.

Any suggestions?

I stumbled across this post today after a particularly difficult Christmas with my family. I moved far away from them all as soon as I turned 18 but obviously at Christmas we still have to go back home to see everyone and pretend everything is ok. The only thing is, it kills me. It puts me right back to being young and feeling helpless and unloved and terrible about myself. I wish I was strong enough to say no more and never go back, but my children love their grandparents so I put up with it.

It's brought back a lot for me, as has reading through this thread. Everything people have said has struck a chord with me. I went through a lot, although I always tell myself it wasn't as bad as others have it and I was always fed and warm etc. I dealt with it all well, and ran away as soon as I could for a new life, but in the last 2 years Ive found I can't ever stop thinking about it all. Why me? What did I do? Why is it carrying on? Why wasn't I good enough? And now I'm starting to worry about my own parenting. How do you parent well when you've never been shown? I know I'm too hard on them and I panic constantly that my kids will feel about me the way I feel about my mum and dad.

What can be done this late in life about it all? The ones of you who confronted your parents are so brave. That'll never happen for me.

@yoyo1234 this is the Stately Homes thread.

I’m pretty weirded out by something my mum has done. I cut contact with my parents about 10 weeks ago, they turned up with gifts before Christmas but I ignored answering the door so they left them with the neighbour.

I found out today that last week she turned up at the home of one of my workmate’s sons, introduced herself and told him that I work with his mum and that ever since I got married I’ve wanted nothing to do with her. She also said she’d left us gifts but we’d not been in touch to thank her. She then asked him to ring his mum, while she was there, to find out what I’ve been saying at work.

I don’t know this woman’s son, and neither does she. She only knows who it is and where he lives because one day last summer I pointed to the house in passing and said my workmate’s son has just bought that and is on with doing it up. It’s all just totally bizarre and I feel it’s incredibly intrusive. All she knew is that I work with this guy’s mum, she could be the office gossip or office bitch for all she cared, she’s not but that’s not the point is it? I’m 49 years old and she’s knocking on the door of a stranger to find out what I’ve said to people I work with. Who even does that

@NoraButty

Your instinct is spot-on. That is weird and must have been really quite unsettling for you. Someone on the previous thread (could have been toomuchtooold but if I'm wrong, my apologies) said something that struck a chord with me at the time; that when you go NC with someone, there is a final nuclear burst of narcissistic rage (like a solar flare before it burns itself out) as they attempt to regain control of the situation. I took that to mean they take pretty illogical and desperate last-ditch measures to get your attention. My mother has made two dramatic attempts to draw me back - one involving acquaintances and one involving strangers - and neither have worked so I am hoping she's given up now.

Your parents' ploy with the neighbours didn't have the desired effect so now they have approached your colleague's son, which is pretty desperate. It puts you in the position (as an entirely reasonable and rational person) of feeling that you either have to explain to a virtual stranger or feel embarrassed at work. And isn't that the objective? To put you in a no-win situation? And ultimately, to force you to respond?

I've been NC with my mother (and by default, my enabling father) for nearly four months now so a little longer than you but not by much. It isn't easy, Nora, as you know. There are days when I feel so low. I'm sure you do too. But you and I both know that reasonable people don't behave the way our parents do, and that if they had been reasonable people in the first place, you and I wouldn't even be on this thread now. So stay strong. It won't always be like this.

@Becca19962014

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestions (hopefully, someone else can) but I send you kind thoughts and best wishes.

@pineapple22

You're not my lovely DSis by any chance? What you are describing is pretty much what she goes through so my heart goes out to you. Will post more tomorrow in the hope it might be of some help to you but till then,

Just wanted to pop in to wish everybody a happy new year, one free of the myriad of abuse.

I also wanted to highlight three posters @toomuchtooold - she gives so much of herself and has helped me massively. I am forever in her debt. @AttilaTheMeerkat - what can I say about Attila? Bloody LEGEND. A wide array of knowledge and does her utmost to help people. Finally, a newish poster, I've enjoyed reading her threads from the past few days @SingingLily . Keep up the good work 😃

Happy new year to everyone on this thread from me currently in florida so it’s not midnight here yet.

Steve, thank you so much for your nice words re myself, you are too kind.

.

@SingingLily no I'm afraid not, I have no sisters but wish I did! I always thought life would've been a lot easier to deal with if I'd had a friend by my side through it. Thank you

I've a sister but as we've grown up I've realised we had vastly different childhood experiences with my parents. That's not her fault but it effects our relationship a lot.

@Simply Steve, my thanks for your kindness. I second every word you say about Attila and toomuchtooold and let's hope 2019 is a better year for everyone on here.

Happy new year everyone.

@pineapple22

Thank you - I promised you a longer post today and here it is. It's a bit of a marathon but I hope it helps in some way.

My DSis - much loved by me, but conspicuously unloved and unwanted by our mother - left home at 18 too and never went back, just like you. She and her young family live far away from our parents. For a long time, she used work as the excuse for not living nearer to them and only being able to see them a scant few times a year for unavoidable family events, but it was a convenient fiction. The truth is, she can hardly bear to be in the same room as them but does it only so her children would one day have some memories of their grandparents. It comes at a cost, though (just as it does for you), and our mother's reliably selfish, manipulative, cruel and cold behaviour has escalated recently, leaving my DSis to question whether it is a price worth paying at all.

What did my DSis do to earn such treatment from her own mother? Simple. M only ever wanted three children and my lovely DSis had the misfortune to be Child No. 4. How did she learn this? Well, apart from the fact that M showed little interest in her from the time she was born (I'm 17 years older than my DSis and loved her from the first moment I saw her so I fed her, changed her, cuddled her and sang to her), our weak enabling father told my DSis so. She was 14 at the time and by then, I'd left home so I didn't learn about that until much much later. I think he was trying to elicit sympathy for his poor hard-done-to wife from the child who was the alleged cause of her unhappiness.

Unforgivable. Absolutely unforgivable. I feel a tidal wave of fury whenever I think about that.

My DSis was always fed and kept warm too, pineapple22, but she was starved of love and warmth by our parents. I was neglected physically and emotionally but our brother and middle sister were indulged and adored. That might help to explain why our sibling relationships were and still are so fractured.

I made a decision when I was about 12 never to have children because I didn't want any child of mine to have the miserable and lonely childhood I'd had. My lovely DSis made the opposite decision. She desperately wanted children and went through difficulties to have them because she wanted to give them the unconditional love she'd never had. And just like you, she worries endlessly about whether she is a good parent because no one in their right mind would use ours as role models.

She would say she is a little hard on her girls sometimes. That's because we never had a structured childhood, never had support, were never shown any interest or offered any guidance by our parents and certainly, were never taught social skills. We just had to learn the hard way when we went out into the wider world. My DSis is desperate to give her girls the benefit of that hard-won knowledge so they will grow up to be emotionally secure and socially confident. She wants to spare them the embarrassment and anxiety that she and I experienced interacting with other people and trying to fit in. I wondered if that's what you meant when you said you know you are too hard on your children and so you panic about it?

The very fact you are even questioning yourself tells me that you are nothing like your parents and that you know what makes the real difference. If your children have no doubt that they are wanted and loved - and I truly believe that even tiny children are highly sensitive to that - then you are already a winner in the parent stakes.

My DSis hugs her children every day, with love, without hesitation and without fail. And she never pulls away first. She lets her girls do that. That's because M doesn't do hugs. As children, we soon learned never to run to her for comfort or reassurance. There was no point. Might as well have hugged the ironing board.

I'm so sorry you had such a difficult Christmas. My DSis did the same as you for years but this year was different. I'm now NC with our parents (long overdue, long story, and this post is long enough already!) so we went to hers instead and had a lovely stress-free parent-free day. Best Christmas ever. No tension, no walking on eggshells. Just the joy of spending time together, including lots of hugs for and from my little nieces.

I don't know how old your children are but please think about this. Do they sense you are stressed and unhappy when you visit your parents? Even if you think you are keeping up a cheerful front, do you act or react in ways that are different to how you normally are? Your children might not say anything now but they will know - trust me on this - they will just know that something is amiss and it will puzzle and unsettle them. They might not tell you for another 15 or 20 years but they will remember. I knew from the age of four that things weren't right or fair at home and only when I was "big" would I be able to do anything about it. So here you are, trying to do the right thing by your children at Christmas, but is it worth it? Couldn't you find an excuse to stay at home next year? Or book something? Or give the other grandparents a turn? Any excuse but try to get it in nice and early. Only you can decide but please think this over and whatever you do decide, I wish you only the best.

@Becca19962014

Same in my family. My youngest sister, my DSis, and I have a strong bond without each other but our respective relationships with our brother and middle sister are tricky, tricky, tricky, because their experiences of growing up in the same home with the same parents are so different. As a child, I resented the obvious favouritism they enjoyed, even though that wasn't their fault. My mother was, and still is, a grandmaster at "divide and rule". As adults, both DSis and I make sporadic attempts to rebuild our relationships with the middle two siblings but M busily works away in the background as a saboteur, aided by the corrosive levels of secrecy she weaves around even the most mundane events and because they don't see her as we do, the manipulation pays off. It's exhausting, Becca, isn't it?

Oops! My DSis and I have a strong bond with each other. Dratted spellchecker!

Is it ever ok for a mother to watch while a step-father smacks a child? Trousers down, over the knee?

That is wrong on so many levels wasthis. Your mother is complicit here in allowing him to do that to you.

Thought so. How could she do that though?

Some women can prioritise their need for a man in their life well above their children,s wellbeing and welfare. She may also have been fearful of him but that is still no justification for what happened to you here. It’s all excessive punishment for some minor misdeameanour.

Are your mother and this man still together?

They were together until I was 17 and then she met an even worse one but I was able to move out after about 18 months. Still, she was pretty despicable in that short time.

I think I might try and list all the things that play on my mind because I've never been able to move on. I'm 32 nearly.