"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Rainbooboo I'm at a similar stage. Whilst it's hard to leave the vitriol hanging in the air I think it IS probably best for you not to reply. You don't need to continually justify yourself.

Pickledpickles I would ignore them. Do what you wish with the gifts. Whilst they would like to access your children directly bypassing you they DO NOT have that right. You DO have the right to protect your children from this situation.

@fc301 I get told I'm denying them (my kids) a relationship with aunts, uncles, cousins etc. They aren't people I want them exposed to with their bitterness, judgemental attitudes, controlling and general spitefulness and jealousy. Not to mention the racist, xenophobic and brexit voting get the Muslims out mentality. I don't want to have anything to do with them hence being NC so I don't want my kids in the position of having to ring or write to say thank you. They will keep sending gifts on birthdays and Christmas. I don't want them to.

Pickled is it your mum saying that? They have her acting as a flying monkey. My advice is you take the presents off your mum with as little comment as possible (that way your mum isn't pulled into it and can't be quizzed by your relatives) and then you either dump the whole bag or get your DH to take the cards and wrapping off and you give them to charity. You're absolutely right that you're not denying your kids, you're keeping them out of harm's way.

Steve I hope you're doing OK and that that's your duty visit out of the way for a loooong time. [Flowers]

Lizzie glad to hear you're holding up OK too. We had our one awkward guest today and she was on quite decent form for a change, managing to get some civil chat out of her and they seemed to enjoy lunch and stuff. It's challenging dealing with the less dysfunctional family members I find - there's two in our family who are proper batshit but also a whole bunch who are sort of tending in that direction and I feel like when the penny dropped about my mum it was like I became allergic to those people. I have swung slightly back in favour of keeping the peace but interestingly some.of these awkward characters have become less awkward in the meantime and I wonder if it's coincidence or the fact that I've made it quite clear that I'm not taking any snash off anyone anymore

Rainbow book I think you have to go high where she goes low and not respond to anything you don't hear directly. Your DH is in the middle of having the scales fall from his eyes as regards his mother and the more he can do that on his own, the easier he will find it. Don't doubt yourself, your MIL wants you to feel like you're the one causing the problems but look at what's actually happened and you know, she's the batshit one, you're not doing anything to provoke her awful behaviour other than retaining boundaries and self respect. She's not ever going to like you, try and see that what she says is designed to hurt. And try and hear as little about her as possible. Your DH doesn't have to pass on every awful thing she says. If she has your phone number block her. The less you hear, the easier it'll be to disengage.

Big comforting hugs to everyone here. Remember you have a right to feel safe and happy and not a doll at the whim of screwed up parents.

I mostly just lurk these days, but wanted to post because my father sent his self-obsessed guilt laden Christmas missive to me. And this year he included a photo of his new Jaguar sportscar, "for my interest". Yeah thanks mate. But we took you to stately homes AND I have a posh car!!! Don't you know who I am??? FFS.

Had some fog for the past couple of days but it's lifting now.

Take care all xx

I haven't seen or spoken to my father in over 10 years, btw.

So this email was to remind me that he apologised (it was a non-apology), demand to know why I haven't responded, and here is a list of his achievements and a photo of his new car.

Oh Christ nomad. "Sorry not sorry, look at me" then basically? God, they really all have the same playbook don't they? Glad to hear you're emerging from the fog though

Oh my god was the person who wrote this listening to mine and my mums christmas day argument. Its almost word for word what she said to me when I tried to confront her about my childhood

I hope I can join your group!
My difficulty is with my MIL rather than parents tho. I believe that my MIL is a narcissist. She shows no empathy to anyone, is extremely self absorbed and emotionally manipulative. FIL is an enabler.
My husband is the classic scapegoat and mired in FOG. His way to protect himself seems to be to pretend nothing is wrong.
I’ve always had difficulty with them but it’s only after recent difficult events that I've started to realise how dangerous they are.

My problems are;
1. I have hardly any of my own family and always wanted to be close with my DH’s family. On some level I think I still feel this.That they’re going to magically change and be the family I always wanted. I need to let this idealised version go.
2. They have no insight. I keep thinking that someday they will wake up and realise their deficiencies and how badly they treat us. But again I must realise that this will never happen.

I really want 2019 to be the year that I protect myself from getting hurt, establish proper boundaries & low contact and stop giving them so much headspace!
I'd like to learn how to help my DH too.
Have bought the ‘Toxic in-laws’ book.
Will be keeping an eye on this thread for inspiration too.
Thank you!

Welcome!
Yes letting go of hope is an important step.
IME of 3 years of explaining etc had no effect. No recognition of the problem.
As they all say all that you can change is how you react.

Hi all,

Wanted some advice. Ive been no contact since April with my father and PIL. They have sent money to my son for Xmas by posting it and my father gave it to my grandmother to give to him. My father has given quite a lot.

My Son doesn’t know yet, as I am not sure what I am supposed to do with it? Do I ignore it or send it back? Or should my Son know they have given money to him for Christmas? Would it be denying him if not?

Thanks

Why, assuming your boy is under 16 I think this decision is still yours. You'd not be denying him, you'd be protecting him from people who you know to be abusive. You can totally do that. If you choose not to pass it on to him you could give the money to charity or spend it on your son without telling him where it came from. You could also send it back. Sending it back has the advantage that your family can't complain to all and sundry that you'll take their money but not see them etc etc but let's face it, they could say that if they wanted anyway. The disadvantage is that it's more communication with them. It's up to you really. I'd be minded to give it to a charity that my mother really hated if it was me

I posted above ^ Thanks

Hello, I've seen this thread over the years and have thought it's not for me as I've one fantastic parent who is thankfully now well shot of the other one, but I'm considering going from low contact to full NC and wondered if there's a thread for those of us with one alcoholic (oh no he isn't), aggressive, manipulative bully of a father.

Toomuch- Thankyou for your reply, I really appreciate it.

Every time I think I’ve made a decision, i think it’s the wrong one. Every one doesn’t seem right to me. I’ll have to make my mind up soon.

Hello everyone, very infrequent 'dipper in & outer' of this wonderful support thread.

Hoping you'll forgive my bursting in with a question somewhat off the current topics being discussed.

Considered starting separate thread but trying to explain the background of having been raised by several narcissists is a tricky one for those who (fortunately) have no experience of it.

Anyway, it's nearly January & seriously researching an eating plan to get some of my accumulated 'bulk' for various reasons.

Only this time i' d like to do it without the parental policemen in my head shaming me to death.

Usually get as far as treating myself well, eating healthily & generally quite enjoying feeling much better.

And then the voices of the past take over again with a vengeance (along the lines of 'ooh, look at the special little snowflake being all' good' 'who do you think you are, stop showing us up & be' normal' etc etc)

Before I waffle on any more, does anyone else here struggle with self care and have you found any healthy coping mechanisms please?

I had a bit of hypnosis which helped me to see healthy choices as pleasant ones rather than chores.
Also when I discussed rebelling against these ideas my therapist labelled it self-sabotage which was a light bulb moment.

Self Sabotage is right on the money fc301.

Often considered hypnosis to reprogram the subconscious tapes so that's very useful, thank you.

Bibi I struggle with self care for different reasons but there’s so much evidence out there as to why it is good for you. I personally do a lot of self care type stuff these days that my parents wouldn’t approve of but I don’t tell them and when/if the echoes of their critical voices come in my head I remind them I’m trying it my way now as their way doesn’t bring me happiness.

Dysfunctional / manipulative people tend to say what works, what gets them the desired result, rather than what’s true. It wouldn’t have been safe for me to disagree with my actual parents but I’m finding it safe enough to have it our or to re-educate the echoes.

*have it out not have it our.