Ultimatums and alcohol

[Microbeans]

I’m hoping you wise lovelies can help give me some perspective as I don’t know what to do.

Married 10yrs but together much longer with DD. DP has always been an excessive drinker - looking back i of course wish I’d bailed much earlier.

He is an alcoholic but would never admit it. Key drinking points

• he is a secretive drinker and always minimises. This has improved over the years but used to find stashes etc in the house. He still lies about it but doesnt hide as much.
• doesn’t drink to socialise but to escape or destress so it’s fast and over soon
• rarely has one drink and stops but tends to only drink 2-3 days per week and never in the morning or afternoon
• he has a tendency to drink spirits and would think nothing of buying a small bottle of spirit and drinking it on his commute home and claiming he stopped for just a glass of wine.
• he’s let me down time and time again over the years in terms of not arriving home when he says he will etc
• never a violent drunk but obnoxious all the same
• to cope i now tend to remove myself and just go to bed when he drinks
• I get irrational rage when the snoring hits jet engine level as a result of said drinking

I regularly think about putting an end to our marriage - earlier on in the relationship I thought it would improve as he got older and more mature (it has in many ways) but the issue is still there.

He has said he will quit if I ask him but I havent had the courage to ask him yet. I’ve always worried about an ultimatum due to the huge risk he doesn’t follow though and so I’ve needed to be ready to follow through. There is also the issue of whether i would trust him to be sticking to it or hiding it more.

When I weight up a single instance I can easily justify staying for Dd who rarely/never sees any of this. For DD I make the decision to keep the family together.

I also have the massive risk that he goes down hill in the divorce scenario and drinks much more. The guilt would be immense and how would I explain this to DD. I would also then have to trust him be responsible for DD when she visited him and I’m not sure I would.

Right now under the same roof I can turn off the oven when he’s crashed and left it on and can be sure DD is safe. She has a dad and I just hold it all together.

Please can you help me work out what to do? Do I stay in this marriage and focus on the positives (there are some). Or do I give an ultimatum and possible spin us into destruction?

Also shop around groups if you can. Some adhere strictly to the steps others are more relaxed. Each has a different personality.

Your first time through the door - get numbers, there should/will be a greeter. Ask around for a sponsor if any one is sponsoring. But get numbers and talk to people.

It's your first step and it's scary because you are having to face a big change in what is going on in your life.

I heard someone say once, that at first they detached (from their alcoholic) with hate, then they detached with indifference and finally they were able to detach with love.

This helped me to realise that I detaching was the important bit, and that detaching with love might not be achievable straight away, but that I can come back to that when I am ready.

Also shop around groups if you can. Some adhere strictly to the steps others are more relaxed. Each has a different personality.

This is very true. The group I go to does not adhere strictly to the Al-Anon dogma, which is what I like about it.

Tiddley you are so right about the stages of detachment. I wasn't able to detach with love until after my H died, which still makes me sad. I can't say I ever detached with hate though - anger, plenty of that, but not hate. I've always been able to distinguish between the man and the illness, it was just hard to accept that to get the illness out of the house, I also had to make the man get out.

I miss my home group in Islington. Since we moved out of London, my nearest meeting which is a 5 mins walk is not to my taste. But the one I go to is cool, it wasn't until three months in of shares that people relaxed. Mostly because I was often the only man.

It's interesting the gender dynamic between AA and Al-Anon. If your kids are over 13 there is Al-Anon for teens, but they are few and far between.

It's funny I mentioned step 13 today. I took dd2 and her friend out for ice-cream and her mum (who is gay) tagged along. We got chatting and I was opening up as to why no one had seen dd2 mum around. She started telling me her story as to why no dad. The thing is about step13 is when you meet someone who understands and empathises ('specally when they are in full biker chic with tousled hair) big sigh.

It's times like this I find gratitude in my life - for all the hell the dd's suffered I was never drunkenly violated.

I always find the hardest thing of all when discussing all this in hindsight is how we end up normalising and minimising the alcoholics behaviour, how we adjust and put up.

And pointy is so right, about getting the illness out of the family home

disney apologies I was switching responses between you and OP on different paragraphs - so I can see how it looks like I switched the genders. Will try to be clearer.

I do think though that it would be good to have a laundry list or sliding scale of all of the alcoholic behaviours as some sort of continuum / sliding scale from mild to extreme - this would allow you to "look ahead" and decide where your personal red line was because often decline can be subtle - like boiling the frog as you are so distracted firefighting that you miss stuff and it is only when it finishes and you look back in horror as to what behaviours went on right under your nose.

Maybe "detaching with compassion" might be more palatable language.
Love is quite strong and might feel "too much" - but compassion indicates that you need to free up your own finite emotional resources to survive and to support and focus on any children afflicted by the alcoholic dynamic - as well as freeing the alcoholic to experience their own personal rock bottom.

another20 that's a good way of seeing it. Funnily enough I never stopped feeling compassion for my H. Even when I was angry because of his latest slide, I never stopped seeing how bloody miserable he was. The only moment that went away was when he got incredibly drunk and threatened to kill me - in that moment, I was afraid of him for the first time in my life, and I called the police to have him removed and resolved he was never coming back home. And I stood by that even when he came back the following day, remembering nothing of what he had done and said, and I felt compassion for him again. The detachment gives you enormous strength.

processedpea why do you suggest the Sinclair method? I’m just curious as it looks quite an unusual and controversial approach - did it work for you or someone you know?

I’m actually not going to get him to read anything or do anything (see how I’m learning). He is on his own and I’m just focused on me and DD . I may have already mastered detached with indifference, on the journey here, so ive not had a problem to switch the focus.

Wow seriously impressed - you are on your way. Do get support for yourself and DD.

Gosh, this thread has moved fast!

Alateen is for 12-17yr olds who have been affected by the drinkng habits of others, but if there are no Alateen Meetings then a 12+ can attend an Al-Anon Meeting so long as they are with a responsible adult.

I would suggest giving Al-Anon 6 Meetings before finding a Sponsor - don't be railroaded until you are ready (there will be lots of leaflets/info about Sponsorship at the Meeting so you can be fully informed).

Please feel free to PM me, Micro (before Mon)

Some truly heartbreaking situations that describes just how vile alcoholic behaviour is and how damaging it is......

Please please do not underestimate the damage that living with active alcoholism can do to your kids.

My blood ran cold when my (at the time) 8 yr old DD recounted an particularly distressing 'incident' that happened when she was 3 years old

Re the Sinclair method, naltrexone therapy for alcohol abuse can be moderately effective in some cases in reducing drinking, but patient compliance is poor and it's in no way a substitute for abstinence.

Opioid antagonists for alcohol dependence

If you look up thread a bit you'll see that I suggested see his doctor first and that there were medications that could help. The idea that an opioid anatagonist by itself is the answer is bollocks.

naltrexone makes your average drinker feel a bit sick queezy, your chronic alcoholic like mine breezes through it on the way to Aldi for a breakfast 75cl of their finest low cost vodka, brushing off the urge to vomit like a hang nail.

Sorry to sound so jaundiced but - y'know, been there done that.

Today I'm meeting her with the kids. Theur social worker has asked me to ring my ex to check her condition before meeting.

If she's drunk then... I was going to say another let down, but checking with the dds this morning they are expecting it. What a way to live.

Disney thanks for giving a much more vivid picture of what I was trying to say about naltrexone.

I also wanted to say that you have my deepest sympathies about your situation with your wife, and i say that with complete sincerity as someone who has been in her shoes.

Well thanks missconductus I have a lot of time for people who have fought in the war of alcoholism and have won their battles. I know a few now, especially my exs sponsors who gave reached out to me to say they couldn't help. It's bad when 3 sponsors walk away from the alcoholic. The sponsors sponsors were saying to be careful because she's one of the ones that can break a sober alcoholics sobriety.

It's a shitty disease that's like a poisonous spiderwebs you, you family, your friends and any one who comes into contact with it gets caught up with it.

I'm guessing as you've hung around on this thread, you recognise a lot. It's brave of you to face that. I can imagine how cutting some of the things that have been said are to you.

It's things like naltrexone, I was sold it on the statement. "It'll stop me wanting a drink" now after experiencing it I'd say otherwise and it's not for the chronics, they can tough through it.

disney I've known quite a few people whose alcoholism was either very treatment resistant or untreatable. Has your wife tried a residential, inpatient detox program?

I don't really find it that hard to read the things said on threads like these. Part of that is clinical detachment and partly it's because my history is quite different. I quit drinking (in an inpatient program) in my early 30's when I was single, before I had even met my DH much less had children. I'm sure I was a complete pain in the arse to my friends and family at the time but I've never caused the kind of chaos I would have if I hadn't dealt with it when I did. I can surely see how I would have.

It is a shitty disease for everyone it touches and quiting drinking was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. Lots of alcoholics wind up dying of one of the comorbidities.

Are you and your wife still together?

You're a voice full of knowledge and compassion, MissConduct .

Good question about treatment and treatment resistance. My H did both outpatient and inpatient treatment. Both times he was back to drinking within two weeks or less - after his inpatient stint, it was a couple of days. I think for some people, the illness is too powerful.

Thanks pointy.

disney, apologies for my last question. I've reread your post and you've referred to her as your ex.

misconductus no need to apologise, these threads and be s bit complex and it's easy to miss.

One of my concerns is, is that I'm talking about an alcoholic woman her and I try hard to do things in a very general non gender specific way because alcoholism is an equal opportunities destroyer.

Plus I know that in the family is often men who are the abusive ones .. it took me a very long time to work out the abusive nature of it because I wasn't having the shit kicked out of me. Where as for a sober wife is often so much harder.

But I'm not an expert in this area, this is just my observations and opinions, all I can hope for is that if someone recognises part of my and my DCs story as an early red flag, they can do something about it earlier.

But that does taje a lot of strength

So good news is I went to the Al Anons meeting today. Was super teary even trying to say the most mundane thing.

Was slightly disappointed that I didn’t get any of your mumsnetty vibes there (the fierce, no nonsense, don’t mince words advice 🙂).

It was soft, oddly quiet at times, careful and slow. I didn’t spot any immediate kindred spirit to target either...:.clearly went in with some unrealistic high hopes!

I think it may not be for me but I will do the 6 sessions. The good news is I’ve also called the helpline tonight to ask my questions about the meeting - the key is I’m reaching out which is progress. Thanks all

Good for you ... It's a lot different irl... No one ever goes ltb in direct uncompromising ways, it's more a sharing of understanding and group compassion that you'll get. People who don't live with an alcoholic often dont get what it's like.

But different meetings have different tones. The key thing is you get to share out loud. Saying it out loud us tge hardest thing of all. The day to day exists CE with an alcoholic rocks atiubd in your brain, battering your feelings into submission and not knowing what to do or think next.

Once you say it to other people and you use your own words, you get to take back your own reality. Plus if you sit there and go fucking fucker fucked up other people get it, they've felt it.

So just keep on going. Did you get numbers of people to reach out to? If not next meeting try to. There should be s list out.

This is your first step

The day to day exists CE with an alcoholic rocks atiubd in your brain, battering your feelings into submission and not knowing what to do or think next.

Should read

The day to day existence with an alcoholic rocks around in your brain

I would add to disney's words that not all groups are the same and you may need to look around for one that suits you. The one I go to is pretty hard hitting and much more like this thread. And that doesn't suit everyone either, but it suits us as a group. I'd give this group the 6 sessions and then think it through. Well done for going.

Well done Microbeans. Alcoholics Anonymous meetings can be a little quirky too. Lots of people come once or twice and then are never seen again so the regulars may be a bit reluctant to reach out to you until they know that you are going to come for a bit.

Great progress indeed.

Ah well done, well done

Yes, give it 6 sessions. It's so interesting how 12 step groups pan out...

I was at mine this evening, and I thought if you as there was a family turn up for the first time, F,M & S and my group is always welcoming of new comers as it's bloody intimidating bearing you soul and seriously scary. Especially if a regular is having a bad time and is doing s difficult share.

Believe all of us, you are not alone, we feel for what your going through because we've gone through it too.

Give your self a huge pat on the back, run a big steaming bath, make yourself an apple and cinimon infusion lie back and say

Well done me. My first step starts.