Ultimatums and alcohol

[Microbeans]

I’m hoping you wise lovelies can help give me some perspective as I don’t know what to do.

Married 10yrs but together much longer with DD. DP has always been an excessive drinker - looking back i of course wish I’d bailed much earlier.

He is an alcoholic but would never admit it. Key drinking points

• he is a secretive drinker and always minimises. This has improved over the years but used to find stashes etc in the house. He still lies about it but doesnt hide as much.
• doesn’t drink to socialise but to escape or destress so it’s fast and over soon
• rarely has one drink and stops but tends to only drink 2-3 days per week and never in the morning or afternoon
• he has a tendency to drink spirits and would think nothing of buying a small bottle of spirit and drinking it on his commute home and claiming he stopped for just a glass of wine.
• he’s let me down time and time again over the years in terms of not arriving home when he says he will etc
• never a violent drunk but obnoxious all the same
• to cope i now tend to remove myself and just go to bed when he drinks
• I get irrational rage when the snoring hits jet engine level as a result of said drinking

I regularly think about putting an end to our marriage - earlier on in the relationship I thought it would improve as he got older and more mature (it has in many ways) but the issue is still there.

He has said he will quit if I ask him but I havent had the courage to ask him yet. I’ve always worried about an ultimatum due to the huge risk he doesn’t follow though and so I’ve needed to be ready to follow through. There is also the issue of whether i would trust him to be sticking to it or hiding it more.

When I weight up a single instance I can easily justify staying for Dd who rarely/never sees any of this. For DD I make the decision to keep the family together.

I also have the massive risk that he goes down hill in the divorce scenario and drinks much more. The guilt would be immense and how would I explain this to DD. I would also then have to trust him be responsible for DD when she visited him and I’m not sure I would.

Right now under the same roof I can turn off the oven when he’s crashed and left it on and can be sure DD is safe. She has a dad and I just hold it all together.

Please can you help me work out what to do? Do I stay in this marriage and focus on the positives (there are some). Or do I give an ultimatum and possible spin us into destruction?

May I suggest waiting a while before doing that, digest it a bit more.

Also it was one of the many books, articles and stuff that I tried over the years as an entry point to a form of self realisation, just like my failed ultimatums it got me nowhere, just more hidden drinking like the switch from drinking during the day to waiting till bedtime and me being asleep with an evian bottle filled with vodka on the bedside table and drinking it through the night.

@disneyspendingmoney

Good luck and upwards for the next few months! Honestly life is so much better. I was lucky in that he hasnt been openly drinking recently It was more codeine. However when he did drink it had changed from beer / wine to neat vodka - that was a big thing for me as well.

I don't know what will happen long term - to be honest he has never seemed comfortable not drinking and has always to substitute so I suspect he won't be able to stop unless what he addresses is causing this need to allways take something.

He has depression but whether that's caused by alcohol or why he drinks who knows.

The model play is for you mainly, not he as such.

That is really a model of your life now. You are basically going from one crisis to another with you firefighting. Life at home is not stable.

He is not a model dad either, he is an alcoholic and his primary relationship is with drink. Do you really want your child growing up with the idea that her drunk father is a model dad?. Why did you describe him as this?

I would also consider seeking legal advice about your child and finances in the event of separation. Forewarned is forearmed and you do not have to act on that immediately. Knowledge too is power.

As you have also learnt to your overall cost, alcoholism thrives on secrecy. It has done you no favours at all keeping this a secret. You also need to get off the merry go around called denial and address your codependency, this whole idea that even now you are still responsible for him.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Thank you for that comment about the play - I have never read it but yes I can see our situation in that. I am completely he provoker. I definitely checked out of the marriage emotionally quite some time ago - his view is he had said sorry for having a drink and it's all forgotten let's move on! Doesn't work like that! To some extent he is still doing that - he's moods are up and down and when they are down he rants at me for this that an the other. I have take to sending short civil responses if anything but the next day he says oh sorry bit stressed and again expects me to forget everything he has said!

He also refuses to see how his denial of drinking (when there is an empty bottle in front of him!) leads me to make the decisions I make for the welfare of DD's and I should just trust him when he says he hasn't drunk.

Argh - how do I make him understand why we can’t keep going like this? I thought the play was great in that it so clearly describes him and me that it would give him some clarity also and be the start of the big conversation. It would be too much for me to blindside him with this without giving him a chance.

I’ve never done an ultimatum. I’m prepared to do one, and one only, but I need to make him understand that the state of our marriage, and the way I behave and have changed, is directly linked to the drink.

I had endless conversations where I told him what it did and why I felt like I did.

Doesn't matter. He has to want to stop drinking and it doesn't sound like he does - why should you need to ask him to stop if he knows it is affecting things.

I know that everything I write is all about him. I’m sure it’s infuriating to read. But I don’t think I can live with it if I don’t give him at least a fighting chance. If he doesn’t take it then I can deal with the consequences.

You have a child together so it is good that you are giving him lots of opportunity to be a family together. Does he realises you are doing that, though?

I hope you manage to get to a meeting don't worry about it being an open meeting as the partner of an alcoholic you qualify so to speak
I did notice in one of your earlier post you mentioned an AA support group - this is for alcoholics it's Alanon you need
Wishing you well I am many years sober thanks to AA

I think you need to go to Al-Anon before you make any decisions. Once you know your boundaries you will find the strength to act decisively. An ultimatum only works if it's a one off thing and you follow through on it even if doing so is heartbreaking.

@microbeans, you will be writing about him, be ause he is the primary cause of your distress. The alcoholism keeps you unbalance, so that it can continue to thrive in the host. You trying to navigate a difficult situation that goes from the extreme sorrys to extream anger - every bloody day this is the point where you do some self nurture, you are allowed to say all these things about him because alcoholism is taking up all your time. And it's so difficult to put it to one side and get away from it.

You ARE allowed to hate and feel bitter, but don't let that consume you because it lets the alcoholic be alcoholic, and they will use it as justification. What I learned was to take 10 minutes every few days to let myself reveler in the bitterness and anger, in a quiet place away from my DC's and get it out. That may not work for you so explore ways you can find what works for you. Don't keep it a secret, tell people what you go through you'll find a huge world of and me. The ones who are dismissive, just stop and walk away.

Reach out for support as you have done here, al-anon or rehab recovery centers usually have a family and carers group.

If you can find a family law solicitor who can advise you of court and social service and record it. Police welfare checks are one way, but be mindful of the impact that coppers can have on an alcoholic.

These are extream measures when things really are so bad you feel you can no longer cope. So try not to get there, it's a horrible place to be

I know what I've said doesn't really help and I wish I had a magic wand to wave it all away. But it is a realism of what it can be like with an active in denial alcoholic in your life

My heart goes out to you for what you are experiencing

An ultimatum will not work.

It will be the 1st of many, and you will end up at the bottom of the pit with him.

Please believe me (and I speak from being in exactly the same position you are in now); only he can sort himself out, and that will only happen when he finds his own rock bottom.

You can start to look after yourself; please give Al-Anon a try because it has helped many of us to change our lives (no matter how grim) for the better......and it will give you some valuable head space and help you to think rationally and clearly before you decide what you need to do next.

"I thought the play was great in that it so clearly describes him and me that it would give him some clarity also and be the start of the big conversation. It would be too much for me to blindside him with this without giving him a chance".

Microbeans

Am glad you liked the play but you are still on the merry go around and still playing out your roles here in that to near perfection.

You are falling into the same old trap of wanting to give him yet another chance. How many excuses have you already made for him along with chances given?. Too many. You are simply setting yourself up for a huge fall in doing that. Such approaches do not work.

HE is the only one who can decide to address his alcoholism, not you. No not you. What makes you think you can do that anyway?. You are too close and way too over invested to be of any real use to him anyway. Not that he wants your help or support in any event.

You cannot rescue and or save him but you can and should save your own self and your child from further misery at the hands of this alcoholic person. She is being affected markedly by her dad's alcoholism and its no legacy to leave her either.

Attila
I am actually listening to the advice given. Does it seem like I’m not? What I needed when I posted was some clarity and until this thread I’ve not had any.

I’m making progress (massive in my view). I’ve had the chat with DP and am clear about my boundaries and what I think the impact has been on me. I’ve decided and now he has to. Whatever this merry go round is I’ve never been here before.

I don’t think trying to also help him get clarity is somehow on the same merry go round - but you may be right and I will find out soon enough.

I’ve spoken to a solicitor and am also gaining a much better understanding of how difficult it will be to fight any custody on the basis of alcohol. The extreme examples given of drink driving etc simply do not apply to me.

I will go to the Al anon groups as I need to be ready IF this goes wrong but I’m not there yet and no one can tell me what will happen next for certain.

I think you'll be surprised at how the examples you already have are enough to legally question his eligibility for contact with dd. For example, leaving the oven on while he is unconscious is enough.

You say he will always want access to DD but it may be it will have to be supervised access. He is too dangerous to have her in his care alone.

Do go to Al-anon. It will make all the difference.

I'm impressed with what you've done to address this. It can't have been easy

Thanks Spring!
I think the issue regarding custody and access is evidence. The courts won’t (quite rightly) make a rulings based on hearsay only. So if there is evidence such as drink driving, job loss, police reported incidences or witnesses etc then of course safe guarding can kick in.
Leaving the oven on while I’m in the house (with no one to corroborate) is no where near enough.....

@Microbeans, hugs to you, you are doing so well. I am a few months further on from where you are now. You didn't ask to be put in this situation, and getting yourself out of it is complex.

I'm currently riding the storm of still living with my alcoholic spouse, the wheels of divorce are starting to roll, while he spits feathers and deflects his guilt and shame and shock onto me. Alcoholics are good at that. If I hadn't built my armoury, through Al-anon, talking to friends, posting on here, I honestly would have crumbled.

I have the same concerns as you re his ability to parent when we no longer live together. Ultimately his alcoholism is not yet bad enough that it's possible to prove or demonstrate he's incapable of being safe. And his denial is strong, it's part of the disease, so it wouldn't occur to HIM to that he might be a danger

Tiddley i hope things work out for you and you get some resolution soon.

I know if things get worse for me, getting him out of the house will be very hard. It’s difficult enough figuring it out financially without the emotional guilt and manipulation.

I am feeling so much happier already, although know deep down I have currently pinned my hopes on him staying dry. He hasn’t argued against me at all and has just quietly/sadly taken it in.

But I know he doesn’t actually think he has an issue and like you he would argue fully believing he would never put DD at risk. He’s doing it for the me and a little for him health wise and I know from all the wise words here that is unlikely to work.

Im going to get my reserves in place and built the network like you suggest....and just hope I don’t need it. I see light at the end of the tunnel regardless and know I have done everything I can.

Microbeans you're starting to make the right moves.

Very well done, because I do appreciate it isn't easy - especially when the alcoholic stops drinking and you start doubting yourself.....

Just live one day at a time if you can. Don't be stressing out about the future, about his ability to parent, about your ability to cope with him wanting to parent......

Having gone through the divorce process myself, it took a very long time. He pulled every trick in the book to get me to change my mind, because he could see his main enabler backing right off.

He moved back in with his parents so my DD was still able to see him. Please start thinking about alternative childcare for your DD because that is one thing I was warned about - both by my GP (safeguarding) & my solicitor (the Courts will take a very dim view of you allowing your H to be responsible for childcare).

Don't even think about Mediation - he is an alcoholic, living part time in a blackout. So he won't remember what is discussed and you will waste 6 weeks for nothing.

But like we have all said, you need support from people who know exactly what you are going through......at least have a look at the Al-Anon website www.al-anonuk.org.uk

@echidna1is spot on right do not let yourself get taken in. Today I feel like a fool, because of my youngest birthday I let my alcoholic back into the house on wednesday She was sweet, sensible and sober. On Thursday she was drunk manipulative narcissistic and gaslighting - back to square one.

What you need is an al-anon sponsor, someone else who when your confronted by either the drunk or sober personality you can get in contact with to help you.

Today I'm really struggling with co-dependent feelings. What do I do? I made some promises to the children and to her. They are going to be let down, I'll have to inform the children's social worker.. especially in light of what she told me.

All it does is to keep you unbalanced and it take a long time to get out of this situation.

Also @microbeans we're heading towards Christmas the worst time of year for the alcoholic. So please try to get yourself some support soon. Alot if us here will know the hell of Christmas day with an alcoholic

A diary of events is evidence.

Start keeping a diary and document EVERYTHING.

disney it's normal to fall for the promises. I did it more than once. The time will come when you hit your rock bottom and then you will find the strength to stand firm. Take it from someone who has been where you are now and who has come out on the other side.

microbeans yes, do please document everything.

Pointy it's horrible funny I was thinking that I was at my rock bottom about half an hour ago. Well I did my documentation with both the lawyer and the social worker today. Somehow my copy of the contact center stuff never got to the contact center. So I rushed down there with s copy of the form snd paid both of our fees do it doesn't look like I'm obstructive.

Frankly it was horrible lastnight. She was drunk and TALKING at me, we had full spectrum shite. Listened for a while, finally when I could get a word in I made an excuse and got off the phone. Then it was 3 calls to Dd1 between 1 & 3 in the morning (she blocked). FFS alcoholics are so self absorbed. Anyway we all know that.

The thing is what my alcoholic doesn't seem to grasp is that she's going to loose all contact with the dd's. It will be taken away. Then I'll get more hassle, because she'll suddenly want to see the Disney dad in causing heartache bugger off back to the booze before starting the cycle over.

Thing is though, how an I going to guide the kids through all of this. Not be a toxic parent. Not fuck them up any further. Dd2 is really messed up at the moment. I saw the school welfare teacher, we made a plan together to help her and we'll see.

Micro somehow dig a tunnel and escape, don't bother with the ultimatum it won't work and you'll just be gaslighted, manipulated, narcissisized, and threatened.

Oh! Shall I tell you about lastnights threat. It was s good one. The social worker says because of your mental health (general purpose anxiety disorder) your not fit to be a parent and the girls are going to be fostered or put in care. The social workers take on that was "I would never say a thing like that, but if I did it would be to the resident parent first and then the court" There were a couple more but I'd lost interest in listening.