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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Ultimatums and alcohol

132 replies

Microbeans · 07/11/2018 20:43

I’m hoping you wise lovelies can help give me some perspective as I don’t know what to do.

Married 10yrs but together much longer with DD. DP has always been an excessive drinker - looking back i of course wish I’d bailed much earlier.

He is an alcoholic but would never admit it. Key drinking points

  • he is a secretive drinker and always minimises. This has improved over the years but used to find stashes etc in the house. He still lies about it but doesnt hide as much.
  • doesn’t drink to socialise but to escape or destress so it’s fast and over soon
  • rarely has one drink and stops but tends to only drink 2-3 days per week and never in the morning or afternoon
  • he has a tendency to drink spirits and would think nothing of buying a small bottle of spirit and drinking it on his commute home and claiming he stopped for just a glass of wine.
  • he’s let me down time and time again over the years in terms of not arriving home when he says he will etc
  • never a violent drunk but obnoxious all the same
  • to cope i now tend to remove myself and just go to bed when he drinks
  • I get irrational rage when the snoring hits jet engine level as a result of said drinking

I regularly think about putting an end to our marriage - earlier on in the relationship I thought it would improve as he got older and more mature (it has in many ways) but the issue is still there.

He has said he will quit if I ask him but I havent had the courage to ask him yet. I’ve always worried about an ultimatum due to the huge risk he doesn’t follow though and so I’ve needed to be ready to follow through. There is also the issue of whether i would trust him to be sticking to it or hiding it more.

When I weight up a single instance I can easily justify staying for Dd who rarely/never sees any of this. For DD I make the decision to keep the family together.

I also have the massive risk that he goes down hill in the divorce scenario and drinks much more. The guilt would be immense and how would I explain this to DD. I would also then have to trust him be responsible for DD when she visited him and I’m not sure I would.

Right now under the same roof I can turn off the oven when he’s crashed and left it on and can be sure DD is safe. She has a dad and I just hold it all together.

Please can you help me work out what to do? Do I stay in this marriage and focus on the positives (there are some). Or do I give an ultimatum and possible spin us into destruction?

OP posts:
pointythings · 16/11/2018 21:19

Oh disney you sound at the end of your rope. Your addict is clearly spiraling and however hard it is on your kids, she needs to be gone now.
Your social workers should be able to signpost you towards specialist support for your DDs - they will need it and you need to be proactive about it. What help are you getting for yourself? Being the strong one is enormously draining. I am just starting to pay the price myself now that the dust is settling - I am so exhausted and am sad a lot of the time. But I have my support group to help me get through; you need to find similar for yourself.

PM me if you want to talk.

disneyspendingmoney · 16/11/2018 22:41

I'm sorry micro I'm going to sound harsh... But what pointy says is going to happen. With all the ciuncelling and all the rehabs and AA. The alcoholic has got to be out of your life for you to get over it.

And then they have to really work the program to get off the booze

It's heartbresking. I'm s 52yo man who in the last year has spent more time crying than when he was at primary school.

Make sure you see your GP regularly to keep them updated. And keep in top of your own mental health

slummymummy35 · 16/11/2018 23:11

I'm in a similar position to you OP and reading this thread with interest. X

Microbeans · 16/11/2018 23:40

Echidna thanks I will definitely go to Al Anons. I will try again for the meeting Monday and will make sure I am there nice and early.

There is so much devastation from alcohol. I’m a bit shocked reading everyone experiences.

OP posts:
Microbeans · 16/11/2018 23:47

Disney I can’t imagine how tough your situation is for both you and the kids Flowers. Wishing you all the strength to continue standing strong.

I find it so difficult to read how much inevitability you all see in the situation. I know it all from hard fought bitter experience. I will have to learn the hard way as I need to be able to look in DDs eyes and say I tried. My crunch time will come I’m sure but it may take a while. DH always makes a thing of dry jan and he can do it - I’m sure he can last Christmas and a while after. I don’t know for how long though.

OP posts:
Microbeans · 16/11/2018 23:57

Slummy I’m sorry to hear you are also in a bad spot. Are you getting help?

The only thing I know for sure is I wish I had reached out sooner. It sounds so obvious now but in my isolation I couldn’t see how it was impacting my moods and temper etc.
I’ve been in such darker lonelier places than I am right now.

Neither of us have any family support close by or actually many real friends. There is a good a chance things will go very badly wrong but I’m still holding onto the very small chance he will get help.

OP posts:
disneyspendingmoney · 17/11/2018 00:29

My eldest daughter is 12.5yo, she found her first hidden bottle of vodka when she was learning to crawl. So for about 12 years I've minimised and enabled and will be hammered to hell by some for keeping the DDs in this environment.

But LTB is never never easy with an alcoholic, you'll hear.. I'll get better, I'll drink less. I haven't touched a drop, I'll go to AA or a rehab. Some do and get dry, a lot don't and stay wet

By the time the wake-up call if rock bottom has happened. You are an emotional husk with fucked up kids. Wanting to know why you are such a failure of a human being that you couldn't keep your kids safe.
Aquaintances and colleagues see you as a disaster asking why your so flaky and disappear from your desk or don't turn up at work, because your putting back together heartbroken kids, having to go to the hospital because your alcoholic has drunk themselves to oblivion yet again. Or the police have come around because of the noise or because you've had to go to school because your alcoholic has been detained in the playground. They get into fights with your kids friends parents, next thing you know your children are as isolated as you.

And it's so difficult to tell someone, next time your with a friend tell them that your partner was lying bottom half naked on the bathroom floor, in a pool of vomit and piss, with your dog casually licking at the pool of piss. How do you tell someone that about your life. That you cleaned them up and put them to bed, wishing for another day to end. That's why it's one day at a time

You wake in the middle of the night, the bed wet because they are too drunk to get up to go to the bathroom. Or you're dragging them out if the kids bedroom because they are squatting on the floor pissing in front of the children's beds.

The nribours stop talking to you because they know there's something not quite right in your house.

Each time you encounter one of the above you say to uoyrsrlf., It's only thus once they been worse do it's not that bad.

But it is.

Because each time, you get the promises, then the manipulation, then the I can kick it when ever I want, I just need it to relax because of LIVING WITH YOU, YOU MAKE ME AN ALCOHOLIC. Then it yhe guilt shame lying. Over and over again.

You spend day in day out wondering what it is about yourself that's caused this to happen, you look at your children not knowing what to do or say because it's their parent.

If any one recognises just a bit of the about, then make plans, protect yourself and your kids. I never realised just how hard it is to escape an alcoholic.

Now they are back with hollow promises about getting better for Christmas. And you can't escape them until it's so bad that a judge has to say No Contact because co-parenting.

I'm sorry that's so long - but that has had to be said. Because there are many of you that suffer far worse. I've never had to put makeup over a black eye or hide the bruises on a summer day with long sleeves. My cuts and scratches can be easily passed off because I was doing the garden, fixing the car cleaning the shed. Because the alcoholic didn't like what was being said.

I could go on but I'm worn out

Reaa · 17/11/2018 01:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MissConductUS · 17/11/2018 01:44

Not much to add to the loads of good advice you've gotten so far, except I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I'm an HCP and recovering alcoholic with 24 years of sobriety. I was really struck by the fact that he said he would quit drinking if you asked him to. That's really quite unusual and may be a sign that he's more aware of the problematic nature of his drinking than you think he is.

It will be hard for him, given the level of alcohol tolerance you describe, but not impossible. One thing to keep in mind is that like all addictions, it's a medical disorder that needs treatment, and as a pp mentioned, it actually does change the neurochemistry in the brain:

Molecular basis of alcoholism

This is much less technical and more practical information:

Alcohol use disorder symptoms and causes

Don't miss the tab at the top for reading the section on diagnosis and treatment.

If he's really convinced that you mean business he may be willing to give it an honest try. I'd suggest you urge his to see his doctor first to discuss it. The doctor can easily check to see how his liver is and may prescribe medication to less the withdrawal symptoms. Then AA for support. He is very unlikely to be able to quit on own. With medical and peer support it's quite possible that he can. I was much worse off then he is when I quit. I think most alcoholics recognize on some level that they are trapped by their addiction and don't see a way of climbing out of the pit that they've fallen into.

The message you need to get across to him is that you can support him while he is sober and actively engaged in treatment and recovery, but only while those things are true.

Good luck, and as others have said, focus on yourself and your DD. Support him, but only under the conditions above.

Flowers
disneyspendingmoney · 17/11/2018 08:02

reaa I'm sorry to say I dont know how I did it.

It got to the point where all I had was contempt, and the amount of daily effort I was putting in to prop and clean up was too much.

I was to weak to run away with the kids, I kept in being suckered in by the promises.

It was the all the broken and ruined things for the children.

In my case I wasn't strong enough to pack our bags and disappear into the night with the dd's.

It's was the police and social services that did it for us. And when I got the I'm sorries I'll stop I don't have any where to go. I just couldn't accept it and said no and kept the door shut.

Early on in this thread, I said ultimatus mean nothing if you have nothing behind it. No family and friends where you can take the kids to and they will put you up. No bucketloads of cash to get a hotel and then rent. If you don't have a support network. It's hard if your single to break free if this. It's an order of magnitude harder if you have children.

So I'm truly sorry I can't give you a plan. It's when your heart and soul are so destroyed by the alcoholism that anything is better than this.

The worst part is when people say "well your not thinking of the children. Are you" Glib words with little understanding that rip you apart when you hear them, because it's so hard to see a way out.

Once I posted here (name changed) about my partner mistaking the girls room for the toilet and pissing on the floor. All I got back was craptonnes of LTB. Yes I know, but how exactly? Now one ever says, because there isn't really an answer

The post above doesn't help.it gives a false hope for the future. The number of sober alcoholics who say all the technocratic stuff about becoming sober miss the self awareness of what they were like when activly alcoholic and the hell of right here right now where many of you are deep in it with an active alcoholic. proselytizing sobriety, is no good if the alcoholic hasn't had their come to Jesus moment.

For me I haven broken free, at this moment I'm still co dependent. Because I talked to her so she could have contact with dd2 on her birthday, I opened a crack in the door for the bullshit to return.

Microbeans · 17/11/2018 08:59

MissConduct thank you and congratulations on 24yrs! I will read your links later.

I know he has a long standing dependency on alcohol and uses it to manage stress/life. I wonder at times if maybe he’s just incredibly selfish, self indulgent, manipulative etc. What if his steely resolve makes quitting successful and I’m left with someone who is still selfish, self indulgent and manipulative....

OP posts:
pointythings · 17/11/2018 09:11

disney please don't beat yourself up like this. It took me almost 7 years to make my stand. I was lucky because my H was actually mostly reasonable - I had to push everything, lead everything, but he did accept that he had to be the one to move out and that DDs would be staying with me. My DDs were also older when it all started, so although they were damaged, it was less severe. I am not however some shining example of how to get an active alcoholic out of your life.

microbeans you do of course have the option of saying 'OK, I want you to stop drinking' and see what happens. If your DP is serious, it may work. Just be mentally prepared for it not to work. You may need to take this path anyway, so that you can believe that you really did everything you could. I gave my H that last chance - stop drinking and do rehab, or instant divorce. It didn't work for us, but it might for you.

Microbeans · 17/11/2018 09:13

Disney I find your posts so hard to read and take in the devastation. I wish you had been able to get away sooner.

I am ‘lucky’ in many ways. I have some funds (until he loses his job), to be able to escape, but no friends or family to run to. Money and people are the key and I will rely on at just one of those until it runs a out x

OP posts:
Processedpea · 17/11/2018 09:16

Get him to read the Sinclair method

disneyspendingmoney · 17/11/2018 10:05

point & micro thank you for your kind words.

springydaff · 17/11/2018 10:11

Re Al-anon. Look up the Al-anon meetings online - there should be a contact phone number for your meeting, give them a call so you aren't going in blind. Perhaps arrange to come early to meet them before the meeting starts.

www.al-anonuk.org.uk/find-a-meeting/

another20 · 17/11/2018 11:00

Support doesn't always come from family and friends. You might well be disappointed and sent back to square one if you open up and expect them to offer a helping hand to lift you out of the hole. Often they want to minimise, brush over, to maintain the status quo etc.

And to be fair they are not professional experts and may have no constructive experience so could give wrong advice and support. However I do think that it should be out in the open as a fact "DH has a serious drink problem that we are trying to cope with". There is no shame for you hold - and it being "out there" might jolt your DH into some sort of reality check. Sunshine is the greatest disinfectant.

You also are not an expert - so drop any responsibility YOU feel for the 2 of the "C's" - curing it and controlling it.....sign-post him to the experts ONCE - if your need to - AA, GP etc - but do not engage / micro manage the process of his attempts (or not) at recovery. This is his journey to manage and travel alone. Any intervention from you will be counter productive.

Your focus should be on your DD's and your emotional recovery. You are either in denial or just ill-informed if you believe your DD has not been affected. Read up on adultchildren.org/ to understand the havoc wreaked and the job that you now have to focus on to mitigate this future for your DD. She doesn't need to have "seen" anything - she will have felt it all her life - the deficiency and neglect that her DF was not "present" ie emotionally available for her emotional development - as he is mentally preoccupied in one of the only 3 states addicts exist - 1) drunk, 2) hungover or 3) craving/obsessing - white knuckle riding a dry few days. And her mother preoccupied, exhausted, fire fighting - negative energy polluting the home and her heart.

If LTB is too much right now - do what Al Anon prescribe "detached love". You can start by stepping back emotionally from your DH which allows you some space and perspective to see the big picture so that you distance or disengage (LTB) emotionally - baby steps.

This gives you the opportunity to re-priortise your finite emotional energy to you and your DD's healing and recovery rather than have it sucked dry by the emotional vampire that is the alcoholic dynamic.

Your friends and saviours will be specific support groups. These will see you through.

Microbeans · 17/11/2018 11:23

Thanks springy there is no number to call except the main number. I will make sure that I am there before the doors opens 10mins before the meeting starts. Last time I was about 2mins after the meeting start time.

I’m fearful of meeting someone I know although rationally I know the chances are very small. I’m not yet ready for this to pass into my ‘professional’ life.

OP posts:
disneyspendingmoney · 17/11/2018 11:38

My experience of "detach with love" was difficult to attain. It's a bit like a zen state it requires a lot of meditation, self exploration and contemplation. Once you get there you do feel better.

But be aware one you redirect yoursrlf away from the alcoholic you then have to confront the bombshell of what's going on with others. You suddenly realise how much the kids are hurting, because you actually thought you were doing a good job hiding it from them and getting in the way to shield them.

But they know

And then you have the guilts about what you've just realised.

And then you want to make it right and refocus yourself in that direction

I'll say one thing, start to be clear about the support you need, and how it will work for you. What I've actually discovered is the support I really could do with is a dog minder. Strange but true.

One of the good things about going to a group meeting is, you get to talk and hear shared experiences and you realise you are not alone.

Go to your GP and confide, maybe get some NHS CBT (it's good for general stuff but not good for the micro specifics).

Another 20 is right about family and friends it can be counter productive. But that's up to you to know them and decide what to do.

One critical thing known in AA and AlAnon is step 13, watch out for emotional connections with opposite gender and transference as you open up. You'll suddenly find that you've been emotionally starved for so long that you get a bit over attached.

another20 · 17/11/2018 12:38

I’m fearful of meeting someone I know - so will they be. But if they have been there a few weeks ahead of you they might be better placed to welcome you and take away any shame you might have.

"Detached love" - is a helpful compassionate approach - maybe just "Detached" was appropriate for you disney

You cant shield your DD from this situation and once you read up on how this is impacting her you will soon realise that your herculean attempts to hold the family together and keep her in this environment and dynamic is very very wrong - damaging for her and enabling for your DH.

Detached love teaches you to expose the alcoholic to consequences - in the hope that they will reach their rock bottom = when you clear up or fix a situation you are providing a safety net and they never get there.

disneyspendingmoney · 17/11/2018 12:49

another20 you got the genders the wrong way around I'm the husband of an alcoholic wife. I purposefully try to be gender neutral because alcoholism and addiction are equal opportunity diseases.

I've also done as you suggested over the last couple of years, so yes I'm detached right now and the love has mostly evaporated. As my alcoholic is still drinking and no longer in the family home.

Everyone's experiences of living with an alcoholic is different but has many similarities. All I'm trying to do is highlight my family's own experience and if anyone can gain something from it then good.

Microbeans · 17/11/2018 12:53

Thanks another - I will look out for the new support network at my meeting on Monday and start building! I’m not sure about the gp etc will think about it.

Disney thank you - I’m chuckling over the step 13. On the one hand I can totally see the risk, and me being a victim. I’ve fantised about being by myself so much I feel immune. Sadly I’ve never really been single but I have spent at least half of the time, in relationships, trying to get out of them.

Maybe I won’t be celibate for life (although I have been ‘happily’ for over 5 years!) but I will be massively disappointed in myself if I start a dependence on anyone else. Fore warned..thank you!

OP posts:
springydaff · 17/11/2018 13:17

One of the truly wonderful things about 12 step is anonymity. We're all in the same boat, we all have just as much to lose. You don't need to be worrying about meeting someone you know. BUT if you really can't face it then go to an out of town meeting?

Yes I see there's no number - that's a shame, most 12 step offers a contact number for precisely your reason that it's hard taking that first step through the doors.

But take heart : everyone there has been you once ie walked through those doors for the first time. Some people come with someone else but 99.9% come alone.

MissConductUS · 17/11/2018 13:22

I was fearful of meeting someone I knew when I started going to AA, and I did. The meetings were held in my church.

It was fine. I wasn't judged by anyone as we were all in the same boat. If you do see someone you know they will respect your anonymity just as they expect your to respect theirs.

pointythings · 17/11/2018 13:31

disney my experience of detaching was the same - the detachment came and that was helpful, but the love went.

No transference here - but I've always been good at being single. I'm very aware that I need time to work out who I am now and what I want out of life, and where my boundaries are in a relationship. I'm bit younger than you, I'm 50, and my DDs are a bit older (the older will be 18 in January).