Ultimatums and alcohol

[Microbeans]

I’m hoping you wise lovelies can help give me some perspective as I don’t know what to do.

Married 10yrs but together much longer with DD. DP has always been an excessive drinker - looking back i of course wish I’d bailed much earlier.

He is an alcoholic but would never admit it. Key drinking points

• he is a secretive drinker and always minimises. This has improved over the years but used to find stashes etc in the house. He still lies about it but doesnt hide as much.
• doesn’t drink to socialise but to escape or destress so it’s fast and over soon
• rarely has one drink and stops but tends to only drink 2-3 days per week and never in the morning or afternoon
• he has a tendency to drink spirits and would think nothing of buying a small bottle of spirit and drinking it on his commute home and claiming he stopped for just a glass of wine.
• he’s let me down time and time again over the years in terms of not arriving home when he says he will etc
• never a violent drunk but obnoxious all the same
• to cope i now tend to remove myself and just go to bed when he drinks
• I get irrational rage when the snoring hits jet engine level as a result of said drinking

I regularly think about putting an end to our marriage - earlier on in the relationship I thought it would improve as he got older and more mature (it has in many ways) but the issue is still there.

He has said he will quit if I ask him but I havent had the courage to ask him yet. I’ve always worried about an ultimatum due to the huge risk he doesn’t follow though and so I’ve needed to be ready to follow through. There is also the issue of whether i would trust him to be sticking to it or hiding it more.

When I weight up a single instance I can easily justify staying for Dd who rarely/never sees any of this. For DD I make the decision to keep the family together.

I also have the massive risk that he goes down hill in the divorce scenario and drinks much more. The guilt would be immense and how would I explain this to DD. I would also then have to trust him be responsible for DD when she visited him and I’m not sure I would.

Right now under the same roof I can turn off the oven when he’s crashed and left it on and can be sure DD is safe. She has a dad and I just hold it all together.

Please can you help me work out what to do? Do I stay in this marriage and focus on the positives (there are some). Or do I give an ultimatum and possible spin us into destruction?

Argh that was meant to be he doesn’t stop with friends! And I tried to bold. I’ve been lurking for 8 years but a newbie poster and can’t do the basics! Doing it on my phone doesn’t help.

Plenty of people give up .My cousin,my mother,my uncle were all alcoholics and gave up -it's not easy but definitely achievable.
Don't let him give you the crap about he can't give it up -he can if he wants to .Whats he going to do ,wait twenty years until the doctor tells him he's 12 months to live and then give it up .If he can give it up then he can give it up now.
It might be worth pointing him in the direction of "the Sinclair method"on You Tube My relatives gave up cold turkey and I'm proud of every one of them .

Ultimatums don't work, I've lost count of how many I did. Instead I ended up enabling, minimising and becoming co-dependant (I think I'm still not quite sure what it is). What I went there with ultimatums was constantly being let down and then failing to stand my ground because of the manipulations. She wasn't in the main a violent drunk, but because I handled things badly it sometimes occured. The aftermath of a failed ultimatum leaves you angry and frustrated. Especially when you have no support to see it through.

In hindsight, if I could go back in time. I should have set a personal line in the sand, kept it to myself and then saved up the money to take me and the dd's out of it quietly and escape. Easier said than done.

Even now I realise I minimise, I said she wasn't violent but she was, she was emotionally manipulative. If me or the dd's caught her with an actual bottle, she'd self harm or threaten self harm to the extent that we would have to get the police involved.

I admit I handled things very badly, mainly because I didn't know how to go through with an ultimatum. This went on for years, unless you have a really big and tight support network to help you with an ultimatum, then going through with it will be really tough.

My final point is is that by giving the alcoholic and ultimatum will set up an internal conflict in them, you asking them not to drink and them wanting to drink and that last one has a really powerful control over them. In my case I and the dd's list every time

Ultimatums don't work, I've lost count of how many I did

Thats what I mean - they don't "work" if by work you mean "force the person to change their behaviour". They only work in as much as they get you to leave an intolerable situation.

And you are right that there is no point issuing one if you aren't prepared to go through with it - continually telling someone that this time, you really mean it, and then not doing the thing you swore that, this time, you definitely would do is a waste of time.

So don't say to your DH "if you don't stop drinking then I'll leave you" if actually you have no intention of leaving.

If you don't mind me saying, the intention to leave is different to the ability to leave or even the capacity to leave. Leaving an alcoholic is not easy with children because your leaving two people the sober one and the drunk one. It's only when you get to the point that you can't bear either of them is when the intention can turn to an actualisation.

Also the ultimatum doesn't have to be leaving, it could be something else entirely, but I don't think any of them work at all from my own experience. And believe me I tried.

What are you getting out of this relationship now.?

What is in this still for you?

He is not your normal husband half the week either, he is on a comedown from alcohol then. Like many posts of this type too it is mainly about the alcoholic. Alcoholism too thrives on secrecy and you can only help your own self ultimately.

You also need to get off the merry go around named denial.

I would read The 3 act play that is alcoholism, it is hard reading but you need to read this because you and in turn your child are caught up in his alcoholism too.

Good luck for tomorrow, microbeans. Try to arrive a little earlier than the start time just so they and you have time to be welcomed in.

Just remember to listen for the similarities and not the differences.

Go onto the official Al-Anon website which is www.al-anonuk.org.uk where you can access so much more.....

Smart Recovery is a good support service too. It is a self referring organisation. If he really really wants to stop, there will be a support worker assigned to him (and you) for support, advice and medical help.

I was an alcoholic, functioning for a while. Then it began to spiral down and down. In the end, I was at my lowest and my partner called in GP. From there I was placed with Crisis Support for Mental Health. They told me about Smart Recovery.

I didn't realise when I was drinking how much hurt and worry I was causing my partner. I was totally self-absorbed and only thought about myself. Seeing him cry when he tells me what I was like and how worried he was is now heartbreaking, to think I caused that much hurt to someone I love is dreadful.

Smart Recovery helped him so much too, - understanding of the alcoholic etc etc.

This is just a suggestion for you to perhaps ring a local SR and just have a talk, tell them your fears and worries. They can help you to make a decision.

I do hope all goes well for you, and your husband, whatever happens.

Remember, you have to look after yourself first, you will need to be strong for your children and your husband. Take care x

I did try to go today and walked 20min there but was running a late. Got to the front door and couldn’t bring myself to walk in. Also started to doubt whether all meetings were open ones! So massive failure if I look at today but on the scale of my progress over the last 15 years a big leap

No drinking since Thursday, and he was home early those night, so starting to feel like I’m being overly dramatic. Life could be so much worse...

No you are not being over dramatic at all.

He not drinking since last Thursday is really nothing to be celebrating about.

You have a choice re this man, your child does not

Your life could also be a lot better. Did you deliberately make yourself late for the al-anon meeting today

I think you need to be brave and walk into one of those meetings.

No I didn’t deliberately make myself late and I will try again for sure. I thought I was going in right up until the last minute. I’m not normally so timid.

@Microbeans, I started going to Al-anon a few months ago. My situation was similar, my H has a job, takes DC to school, doesn't have vodka on his cornflakes.... And has an uncanny ability to sense when I'm feeling like I've had enough, and reign in his drinking just enough that I start to wonder if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

Al-anon welcomed me with open arms. I didn't have to say anything (although I could if I wanted to), and I cried in front of people who just understood in a way others cannot.

I wasn't sure if it was Al-anon or AA you were going to. I'd never heard of Al-anon until someone here pointed me in the right direction www.al-anonuk.org.uk/find-a-meeting/

Good luck, you won't regret it once you are there x

You need to try again to go to one of those meetings. You will meet people just like you there.

Mine had a few goes at reducing the drinking when he sensed I was at breaking point. The longest he lasted was 6 weeks - of drinking a little bit less. Then he spiraled and the overall trend was always downwards. You need to think about yourself and your DC now - that is where your boundaries have to be.

Try to make it to your first Al-Anon meeting and have your eyes opened.

Microbeans

The 3cs re alcoholism:-
You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

The last two are very hard to accept but accept those you must.

Like many many posts of this type its mainly about the alcoholic. You need to focus on you now along with your DD. Not him.
You have to put your own self first and foremost here Microbeans because he won't and he has not done so either. His primary relationship is with alcohol; it is not with you or your DD. You both are well down his priority list even if either of you are on it.

She certainly cannot afford to grow up thinking that her parents model of a relationship is at all normal because it is not. You also cannot protect her fully from her dad's alcoholism and children are perceptive. She picks up on all the vibes both spoken and unspoken and she is likely aware too that her friends parents do not act like you both do.

I would also suggest you read up on codependency and alcoholism. Do also read the 3 act play that is alcoholism because you are playing out the usual roles associated with those in relationships with alcoholics namely provoker (because you never forget), enabler and codependent spouse.

Did you yourself grow up seeing similar from your parents too?. What drew you to this man initially?. What do you want to teach your DD about relationships and just what has she learnt here to date from the two of you?.

There are no guarantees when it comes to alcoholism; he could go onto lose everything and everyone around him and he could still choose to drink afterwards.

Staying for your child as well is a decision that rarely works out well. She should not be used as glue to bind you and this man together.

It also teaches the child that your relationship was based on a lie and its a terribly heavy burden to place upon that young person. She won't say "thanks mum" to you for staying but could well call you daft to your face for doing so. Your own relationship with her could be affected going forward because she won't likely want to go home to see either of you very often if at all.

Do you really think that he is actually capable or will be interested enough to see his child post separation?. What sort of custody arrangement will he actually get?. Have you actually looked into what access he could receive here?. He has and continues to put alcohol first and foremost in his life and he will continue to let both her and you down post separation too. You cannot continue along the path you have trodden to date and what you have tried to date has not worked. And you must get yourself along to those Al-anon meetings!!!.

he could go onto lose everything and everyone around him and he could still choose to drink afterwards.

This. Mine did this. It killed him. He hadn't seen his DDs for months because they did not want to see him the way he was. Fortunately they're teenagers and able to make that choice without contact being forced on them in court.

I've been through this - in reality he always had an alcohol issue but because I never drunk at home it's easy to assume you are over reacting. The reality is he had a drink problem.

I had issues several ultimatums over time but Never followed through. Well I did once but I was 38 weeks pregnant with dd2 at the time and he moved back when she was born.

He has supposedly been not drinking and going to aa but was substituting with tablets. He was Never really addressing fundamental issues.

I would say over the last 12 months it had been gradually escalating in that he seemed more and more stressed and grumpy all the time. I am sure there was secret drinking I didn't know about - he virtually said for every drink I did know about there was far more. It came to a head when I came home from work and found he had drunk neat vodka while looking after the dd's. He moved out the next week.

Like you I thought they didn't see anything (age 7+10) but they did. I put the oldest hiding in her room down to upcoming teen years but it was escaping the tension. Only just this week has the youngest said she hated the arguments even though I thought she didn't hear them.

When I told him to leave I had all the tears - I have no where to go, I promise I will sort it but I had had enough.

It's been nearly 6 months now and I am happier than I have been for years - I am not living my life on edge looking for signs of him having taken something. I'm not picking up after him all the time. I'm not living with the 'tone' of voice if I stop somewhere on The way home from work to pop to the shops for example. Or if I say something he thinks is a slight against him. The girls arent upset because he shouts at them for not being ready for school after leaving them to it while he sits in another room on his phone. I didn't realise exactly how miserable I (and the house) was until it wasn't there!

If he does it because you ask him it won't work. He has to do it because he wants to. And if he spirals after you split (which I had a fear of) then that's not your issue it is his.

I may sound like a heartless cow but even when he was saying I will be dead or on the streets then I just ignored it. I cannot be responsible for him anymore. In reality his parents have put him up and he is back at aa. He may get through it he may struggle but for me it's too late.

Bollocks this is what I have said in my support group and this is what I hear from newbies - 'I may sounds like a heartless cow but...'
These days, just over a year down the line from my first meeting, I mostly believe that I wasn't heartless - I was doing what was necessary to save myself and my DDs. I couldn't save my H, but I could save us three.
So glad to hear you've done it too - stay strong and live your new life.

Pointy I’m so sorry that sounds truly horrible.

Bollocks thanks for your views (and everyone’s) - I really appreciate the time taken to share stories and I’m a bit surprised it is so common. The arguments are what has me thinking there is no hope. Sometimes I can’t believe the way we speak to each other. It really resonates as DD is sensitive about arguements.

Tiddley are you still with DH? I do wonder if I can be a better calmer happier me with support and counselling and just keep going. I’ve lived with this for 15years without talking about it. I know I can’t change him or control him but maybe I could make peace with it (clutches at the last straws).

Attila thanks for all your advice. You scare me a little tbh. To answer a few of your questions:

• my parents were not drinkers so I never really saw it growing up
• we met at a time when we focused on going out many nights a week and we both had fun. We were young I grew out of it and he didn’t.
• To be fair I think he had the issue even before we met but I never recognised it. I always (even till recently) thought he would get old enough to change.
• he will always want access to DD - unless he ends in the gutter. I’m certain he would get it. He is on paper and in most ways a model dad and very involved with her.

@Bollocksitshappenedagain I'm three months behind you and everything resonates with me - feel for you. The best thing of all is coming home from work and there is no drunken mayhem and not getting the call from school because drunk at the school gate

I will say that there is still tension at home because I'm struggling at times with the work life school balance but it's easing now as I'm getting used to actually having a routine rather than drunken mayhem or hangover guilt trips and that I'm attempting to rely on the unreliable

I read the 3 act play - amazing. I think I may send that to him tomorrow to read as the starting point of a discussion. I can only see me and him though. I don’t think we have any other actors in our play. Maybe I’m double or triple hatting