A awkward Question to single mums

[Issy777]

How would you trust meeting another man when you have kids?
This will sound a horrible, uncomfortable question but I recently was witnessed to something my best friend went through a few years back
She was a single mum to her 9 year old daughter, met a guy in a restaurant we went to (a waiter) he was way too fast with her
To leave out the gruesome details, she caught him stroking daughters leg. Was horrific
She's now scared of meeting someone again. I'm in a bad relationship n think I only stay because i have two daughters n I just wouldn't.. couldn't trust another man, not just cos of what happened with bf but because it's something Iv always feared
What if u meet a guy he acts like Prince Charming, u become close so you're ready to introduce him to your child ? How can you trust his intentions? What he'd be capable off?
Just something I want to know as I know it's holding me back I know there's obvious going to be no way of knowing but for instance when and how long would u introduce your dc to new guy?

I know gp's and SWs who do act this way because of horror stories. I do know high up cid who wouldn't allow her kids to play in amazing playgrounds or go to theme parks because of her inside knowledge of the numbers of incidents and pervs just loitering awaiting their moment.

It made me a LOT more vigilant and less naive about the numbers of men doing this and their fav spots of concentration.

But I completely disagree with the authorities destroying children's relationships by removing them from their mothers who are not to blame I'm this, but now I see why they would be blamed based on what you are saying here, but it IS the men doing it and with that out of the equation and follow up therpies and supports given there's hope for a return to healthy relationships.

When you are subjected to it, your boundaries are weakened or removed.

I was out cycling as an older teen and a van stopped to ask directions. They play on the social niceties that we are all so careful to observe! I've told my DC not to stop and give directions or tell someone the time, as that's all it takes. A mid teen was pulled into a car in our area for exactly that. She was feisty and obviously had enough strength and speed of mind to scream and kick in the right places and was left bruised and cut on the road as they sped off.

I know a teen who's now told her DM of interference by her older brother and male cousin (8&9 at the time). She was 6 and was so confused and upset about it at the time bit she said nothing till about 2 yrs ago. I think this is very common, it happened to me and each time someone speaks about it to another woman you'll find its happened to many of them too, or similar, gropes, park flasher, and so on.

I don't appreciate the victim-blaming, it can go on for years and no-one know so don't blame the women for the men's predation and tactics to avoid detection. Just look at all the high profile cases. Trump is still in office despite his misogynistic hilarious jokes and back-room talk with other men. Look at how many marry comparatively young girls, or when divorcing go for a women 10 yrs younger. You only have to look at the online dating to see the menz sights set on the 10+ yrs younger than them.

Those lads involved in the younger sister/cousin fiddling do seem to be reasonable young men with healthy opposite sex relationships now, but who knows?

How can it be stopped? Ending the silence, like the me2 thing goes a long way, but kids are not aware these things are wrong unless they are told very young, and I agree that mix sex youngsters should be supervised appropriately.

Bearing in mind paedo's will seek out jobs with youngsters, like nursery, changing nappies and so on, scouts, how can it be stopped? Short of keeping young boys/men away from young girls.

My ex has very very damaged sexual self image due to his father's continual assertions he was 'gay' and other abuses upon him. He became sexually violent to me in addition to the rest, and went straight into a family with two very young kids, I tell cafcass, they do nothing.

They do have to know very early and I would not want to leave younger girls alone for that reason.

One of our regular kids clubs had a young lady who I thought a pest, turned out he had been stroking a girls hair, and touching her knee, being too close. She stopped goi g as too scared. I was pariahed for asking for him to have permanent escort because of his behaviour around younger girls in the group. The SW in trainingand the group members shouted me down. He ended up in court for sa long after we'd left.

So many have so many stories so when I read just don't leave them alone together I do wonder whether that really IS the only way to go?

Power and control dictate that women and DC cannot be the authority in those situations, so it will go on.

*not lady... LAD..young lad

Smother - it's very rare that children are removed from their homes. Generally speaking by the time it's got to that point usually the parents/primary carers have been given several chances and lots of support to no longer have contact with an abuser. It usually happens if they're REPEATEDLY not doing what can be reasonably expected to protest the DC.

Sorry but at the point where a mother KNOWS their child has been abused AND who the abuser is AND they don't keep the DC protected from the abuser - I consider that compliance with the abuse. They are imo partly responsible for it continuing to happen in that scenario. And even if you take the stance they're not responsible, they clearly don't have the resources to protect the DC so someone else has to take action.

Absolutely the ultimate responsibility lays with the abuser (and I agree while seemingly rare that can be women too) other adults also have the responsibility of protecting them.

I too have followed #metoo with interest. Positive in terms of more disclosures (though would prefer those victims weren't victims of course) but also negatives in terms of a few celeb bandwagon jumpers who "supported" metoo - while still willingly working with the likes of Polanski, woody Allen and others.

No - there are no grey areas here. If you claim to support victims you cannot also support perpetrators or even imo strongly suspected perpetrators in good conscience.

There are certain older celebs who KNEW what Weinstein et al were like and who HAD good solid careers he couldn't fuck up (not that this is a good enough reason to turn a blind eye!) and in some cases even witnessed victims distressed and dishevelled in the immediate aftermath and DID NOTHING!

What's that saying about "all it takes for evil to triumph" again? 🤔

Yet there's been little criticism of these celebs publicly.

Argh autocorrect nonsense that should say protect not protest of course

colditz
"No, Camel, and this is the mindset I'm talking about. It's not "simply what you do". It's what YOU, personally, do, because you come from an abuse traumatised background."

Actually I am very unlikely to leave either of my kids with any kind of stranger or even a family member or close friend who is male unless I completely trust them. I have been very cautious with my kids because I know that a lot of abuse happens, not because I have experienced it.

I've never chocked either but I used to cut up grapes and cherry tomatoes and not give my young kids balloons that had not been blown up. I've not been run over by my kids know the Green cross code. Etc etc.

CantankerousCamel "Thanks for those who stuck up for me by the way, the endless reports made me unable to post here as I was told I would be banned if I did."

That's actually really shocking and horrible.

SeaEagleFeather I must look into the book called 'the body keeps the Score' by Bessel van de Kolk. My son was not abused, as far as I know, but he was neglected and we adopted him after this.

In adoption circles we do talk about children knowing or keeping or holding (can't remember which) their own realities in their body in some way even if they were adopted quite young. They know their own story so to speak.

CantankerousCamel " "I have done FUCKING well in the circumstances." (I think you have done amazingly.)

Severe neglect, even -very- early, can also cause changes in the brain wiring, as I'm sure you know already :(

At least loving and stable adoptive parents can often given the child enough to overcome it. Without stable and loving parents, well :/

Best wishes for your son, from my heart, he's very lucky to have you now.

but my kids know the Green cross code. Etc etc.

SeaEagleFeather you brought a lump to my throat there! We are lucky to have him. He is amazing.

I don't usually talk about him on here, except in adoption circles. I beleive his mum loved him, dad too, but they could not priorities him.

Agree with Graphista re chances for families before removal.

smotheroffive "But I completely disagree with the authorities destroying children's relationships by removing them from their mothers who are not to blame I'm this, but now I see why they would be blamed based on what you are saying here, but it IS the men doing it and with that out of the equation and follow up therpies and supports given there's hope for a return to healthy relationships."

The thing is kid's lives (of childhood) are short. If parents cannot care for kids and keep them safe the state makes a decision at a certain point and steps in. A child can be abused, or killed by a birth parent or someone they allow into their child's life. The child can also be neglected by a parent, which is now reconsidered as very harmful. How long should that child play second fiddle to a parent's relationship with someone? The state leaves children in situations that are not ideal for a long time before they act IMHO.

"That's actually really shocking and horrible." I agree. CC and I have locked horns on other subjects and I understand to a point why posts containing sweeping generalisations were deleted (without necessarily agreeing with their deletion - I've seen worse left standing) but to be prevented from posting I don't see as necessary.

And as for how you're doing - better than me! I'm currently on my 4th bout of housebound agoraphobia which while not directly related to the abuse certainly my mh generally wasn't bloody helped by it! So well done you!

SEF apologies for misunderstanding your use of "let go" earlier. Saw my mistake when I re-read.

I did reply graphista and sorry for length of pp.

I can't deal with this awful bloody phone my whole reply has disappeared.

I am shocked that ppl still have convo's about this without consideration to the only safe thing to do is remove the bloke and take responsibility for keeping him out. The parents should be together at the top of the triangle with kids at the bottom, whereas in abuse the mother is at the bottom level with the kids and often below them, sleeping on the floor, eating with the kids on poor food, and often being metaphorically spat on by the kids and an ally to the abuser because beingin with the abuser is seen to be the safest place.

School kids bullied are not expected to sort the bully out!!! This is no difference. This is exactly why ppl in the Weinstein and trump situations don't speak, the power over their lives is how it all works!

It's down to authorities to take out the bully not separate the mother from her DC. She cannot ever be expected and punished even more for continuing to be abused by him. It's not her fault.

You can blame me for 'allowing' appalling abuses on that basis, and its taken me years to come to terms with it and realising how terrified I was. I have suffered terrible flashbacks of what he's done, unable at the time to take in what was happening, and my brain really'not knowing' until after it was all over then a flashback runs over you like a steam train and completely obliterates you with what happened.

I didn't do that, he did and I put my life on the line for them, but then hey after all that take my DC away and all DC lose their mother, the one who tried, but failed to stop the far more physically powerful abuser. Not to diminish this to purely physical as having control of the DCs minds and wrecking their emotions just as destroying, if not worse, a living hell for them

So why is the focus on making her responsible for the abuse (help her to stop contact, we don't blame her do we,, so when recovering like pressure on to her to keep the abuser under her control).

Only the man should be responsible and higher authorities responsible for keeping him out.

How can anyone do this to an abused mother still is absolutely beyond me.

I really resent the implication that I complied somehow in his abuse. You are blaming me and all others mothers that despite being torn apart by it we are to blame for it, when it was him that did it and we can't control him!
We can't keep him out, we are beaten by him, coerced by him. Let's pretend she's not being coerced and its her fault he comes back, even when he's breaking court orders.

I was too terrified to say no, the police blamed me for not saying no. That is a joke frankly. If you don't think so you don't understand the nature of da

..and because I was too scared to say no, don't think that I didn't jump in front of DC being attacked in order to protect them and take the consequences myself, despite what that did to my brai n.

I do get that ppl don't understand because its so complex and ppl talk about it being a case of simply leaving, which frankly is insulting. It's about 'escaping' someone who will never let you escape. When escaping is just as terrifying or more so, than staying. Like that's a choice.
I am only just learning about how the brain functions (survives) under those fears, where choice is taken.

To expect women/DC to do that is cruel and showing a complete lack of understanding of the complexity of abuse.

Women rarely feel able or want to say how awful it really is and from the outside it all looks so easy

As the child of da as well as being a csa survivor (not unusual), sorry but I do think there comes a point you have to recognise that if you don't leave the abuser, don't provide witness statements about the abuse, even WITH support to do so, then yes there's an element of complicity.

And in one aspect I think you're wrong in understanding - the focus isn't on expecting the mother to deal with the abuser ALONE, the focus is on expecting the children to be protected and if for whatever reason you can't then yes you need to accept that the best option is for the children to be removed and protected by someone else.

It's a difficult subject I know, my relationship with my mother due to this is very complex. I'm v low contact with her, she had several opportunities to leave and went back every time - even without him pursuing her, even knowing we were being affected and didn't want to go back, having her own immediate family say 'at least leave the kids with us' she STILL went back. She used to say she'd leave when we were adults, then she didn't, she used to say she'd leave when he retired, when X when y... Still with him. And yes I've told her about the csa she doesn't believe me. Even though even in front of her he would make lewd comments to me, was very possessive of me, was always pawing at me...

The authorities can't prosecute him without real evidence. Too many abusers are very clever at not necessarily leaving obvious/ physical evidence, my dad certainly was.

Sorry but if things are at the point of ss involvement and children being removed, then you're in contact with support to not only leave but to give evidence.

As I said before either

You are able to protect the children by leaving and staying away, giving evidence to hopefully get him prosecuted, working with the authorities to keep you all safe

Or

You aren't able to or are unwilling to do the above and the children are still at risk so the authorities need to step in to protect them by removing them from the situation.

I am sorry for your horrible experiences graphista

It doesn't change the fact that the mum is battered and in the same place as the DC. Even with supposed 'help', it doesn't alter she's abused along with them.

What do you want her to do?? If she says no he could kill them all. Well maybe that has something to do with the 2-3 women that are killed every single week, something s clearly not working g and putting all the load on an abused woman to do what the authorities can't seem to is wrong.

You don't seem to get you can't say no, why load pressure on battered woman against a murderer? She has normally risked her own life for her dc.

Ss put loads of conditions on women that they don't on men to be responsible for the DC. Women have to jump through hoops to keep their DC when they are in a battered and frail state all due to him.

Then the DC go to him too, or give her away to him its soo common.

It's the problem of courts, ss, cs, judges police to work out what to do with him.

Would you blame a woman for not reporting a rape? Terrorised, humiliates and shamed, and in a state of not being able to take any more or make stop you then deprive the DC of a mother and the mother of her DC who all help each other to heal,but what hope when not?

Giving evidence can be impossible.

The body and brain can only take so much horror before the brain starts shutting down and becoming unconscious to events. Most of the women in secure units are there because of da

Sorry don't want to derail thread or be part of railing against other women.

I think I have already posted far too much.

camel I do understand where you are coming from and certainly just 'arming' the vulnerable is far from effective, because I believe it's about power and control, no matter who you are.

*remove HIM from the situation, tackle HIM about breaches and further safety issues, stop putting it on her

I think we'll have to essentially agree to disagree, probably as we're coming at it from different perspectives - me as the child you as the mother.

In my mothers case she could have got away, had family support including a variety of addresses to stay at that had people also living there more than capable of seeing him off if necessary. I know that's not the case for all da victims but I have seen/read/heard of similar circumstances.

There are sometimes very frustrating threads on here where posters sometimes haven't had any contact from the abuser, they know they risk losing their DC if they expose them again, they're in a safe place where the ex can't get to them and yet THEY contact him or the thread is things like "but I miss him" - I don't understand that.

no. but i do. haveyou not come across the rescuer, knock her down badly, be her rescue. Called trauma bonding.

I also wanted my DM to leave. I understand now why she couldn't and i don't blame her despite the damage caused.

FOG,
its easy from the outside to judge. finally survivors are starting to feed into this process so that the abused are not just abused further through the courts and ss.
its not frustrating if you understand the dynamic and complexity of the trauma bond and its addiction. when a woman is so low.

anyway, it doesn't matter if you disagree, and i am sorry that you suffered this way, but i hope you blame him for it all is all.

Have you not heard how awful it is to tell women to leave instead of helping them to make their own choices, because its all further abuse.

Womens Aid will never tell a woman to leave, but they will caution about what services will do to her and her dc :(

oops...

I left.... i missed him desperately, physically, was at my lowest, and i don't think ppl really understand what its like. I certainly didn't until coming out of it, years later I might add, so i should say i do understand why others don't get it.

I couldn't speak or understand it. I couldnt explain it to anyone; thanks to non-judgemental support, i do now, and its only after often that the terror or ptsd hits you hard.

please liken it to one of your dc being bullied at school, would you blame them for not standing up for themselves, or rely on the authorities to step in and take action against the school bully

smother I've not heard anyone blame you or similar parents BUT when you are the adult and have children, you are their protector.
I completely understand when you are you being abused yourself, you're between a rock and a hard place.
Can I ask though when SS become involved do they not help women get away from the abuser? Surely their aim is to protect the children from the abuse?
I found out after my Mam died that she knew a family member had abused me. I don't know why but that hurt more than being abused. Knowing that it could have been stopped and dealt with. My life would have been so different.
I agree we should only ever blame and hold the abuser to account
but I can't help being angry at the bystanders

Smother, I can understand the mother that is deeply entreched in the dynamic she lives with a long term partner/husband, the mother who suffers some sort of trauma bond, stockholm syndrome etc. The one who is so mentally battered she actually believes keeping her children in such an environment is better than 'a broken home'... That wretched, brain washed, broken and terrified woman.

But, we all have to be honest about some mothers who fail to protect their children because they put their own needs and self interest first. The ones who routinely expose their children to different men, and fail to engage in any kind of safeguarding. They are accountable. There is no doubt that the abuser is ultimately responsible, but surely if someone continues to fail basics when it comes to their childrens safety, then they are also deeply at fault.

Around 4 in 10 (39%) of victims of physical abuse in their childhood were abused by their father. A further 29% were abused by their mother, 12% by a partner or previous partner3 and, 10% by step-father and 10% by another family member4. Table 3 shows the perpetrators of abuse by sex of the respondent. Women who experienced physical abuse were more likely to have been abused by their father (36%), mother (33%) or partner or previous partner (19%), whereas men were more likely to have been physically abused by their fathers (41%), mothers (24%) or by a stranger (13%).

ONS : ONS

Sorry if this has already been aired, I didn't want to trawl 26 pages to get there but as a step father I felt I had to actually have a look and see what the stats were. They appear very different to the stats touted early on in this thread.

Bujinkhal are you aware whether the figure of "Around 4 in 10 (39%) of victims of physical abuse in their childhood were abused by their father. A further 29% were abused by their mother, 12% by a partner or previous partner3 and, 10% by step-father and 10% by another family member"

Means 12% of all children who were abused by a partner or previous partner3 and, 10% by step-father...

Or 10% of all children (who were abused and had a step father) were abused by their step father?

Because not all children have a step father or mother's partner in their lives but most children will have biological parents living although,again, not all will be in contact with a father and a smaller number may not be on contact with a mother.

None of this is casting aspersions on you as a step father, just trying to make sense of the statistics.