In shock - I’ve just been sacked

[Zofloramummy]

I’m a single mum with a mortgage. I’ve worked in the NHS for 21 years. I’ve had a really shitty few years, left an abusive relationship, struggles with my mental health and had an accident resulting in several fractures.

I have had three absences since my return from long term sickness (flu, D&V, and a horrendous reaction to antibiotics).
I went to the third formal sickness interview today and I’ve had my contract terminated.

I’m in shock I think. They’ve applied the policy to the letter so I doubt there are grounds for appeal. After years of service and being burnt out by the demands of the job I’ve been sacked.

Not sure why I’m posting I think I just need to hear some positive stories of people who have come out of the other side of this. I don’t think I want to work in the NHS any longer. I’m trying to see this as an opportunity. But I’m scared too. Not sure if relationships is the right place to post, but any advice would be great.

In my nhs trust it’s days of absense that count now rather than periods of absence , it’s not good that you had a formal warning and went off again but you sound like you were genuinely ill so I’d have thought as long as you had back up from GP they wouldn’t be able to sack you .
I do agency OP and the flexibility and money is excellent I’d really recommend it .

You have all of my sympathy. This was me 31/01/17 went in to work one morning, a tuesday I think it was, by 17.00 they were removing the lanyard off from around my neck and escorting me to the door with a measly one month's salary. I was gutted. They got a full day's work out of me before sacking me too. One more injury.

I had about 8 months of sustained efforts of job-hunting but I tried not to let it take over my life. I would job-hunt furiously between 9 and 11 and then I would go for coffee and to the gym. I also started listening to a lot of things on youtube that I hadn't had time to listen to before, podcasts things that interested me. Courses on Coursera just because I had time. Catalan on duolingo! I got out the sewing machine, the clay, I was actually starting to find equilibrium of sorts, albeit a poverty stricken equilibrium! when I got a job where my boss is really knowledgeable, explains things really well, is really fair, there is job security, more flexibility, the people are nicer, there might be more oportunities for lateral moves if I ask for a change some time.

It was a tough slump but I got through it and I'm glad I was sacked from the place I was sacked from. I know how hard it is until you get to the moment in time where it all makes sense and you say to yourself thankfully I was sacked from that place

It's completely shit though.

If you have paid into an NHS pension scheme for that many years will you still be able to claim it if they sacked you.
Can't see a response to this (apologies if missed one)...they really can't take away a pension, in any but the most extreme circumstances, so I don't think you need to worry about that.
Also, most large employers won't give a reference anyway when you leave, just a statement of when you worked there (because they are so worried about legal cases if they say anything which could possibly be shown to be unfair...). So volunteering sounds a good plan, but I think you should also ask in writing for a reference, or whatever they call it from the NHS dept where you work.

@NWQM

if she is able to without a reference or with a reference that says she was subject to disciplinary procedures and dismissed

Point of correction...it's sickness not disciplinary.

get her employment record changed

How would she get it changed? You mean if she was successful at appeal?

Being able to say role ended rather than dismissed may be best outcome

They can't change the facts though. They followed a procedure to terminate her employment. The role would only end if she was made redundant. She's not on a fixed term contract.

I'm trying to understand why you think the NHS would say the role ended...instead of the truth. They'd only do this if they did something wrong or felt it was a weak case.

It's possible to have them discount the depression if you cited it as a disability...or if it impacted on your day to day life and lasted 12 months...or if you have a long/longish history of depression and your medical records would support this.

It's complicated....but going into a final stage hearing without being adequately prepared and having a good case to present in your defence would almost seal the case for management.

I don't mean to be harsh...but I get the impression you didn't think dismissal would happen from your opening post.

If the panel also got that impression...They'd think you weren't taking it seriously and were complacent which won't have helped.

They would have had all the paperwork in advance and probably decided you'd be dismissed based on the facts, unless you presented a strong case in your defence.

I would add that it's not a case of anyone can get sick. Of course they can...but sometimes the level of absence is not sustainable and impacts on service delivery.

People think you can't be taken through formal stages or dismissed for sickness or even disability related absence. You can and I'd say public sector are much more linient than private sector.

An organisation shouldn't be expected to continue employing unreliable employees because of ill health...in the current times of so many financial cuts it's not possible.

I've had to dismiss employees who had excessive disability related absence....the manager in one case bent over backwards to support him.... but his disability seriously impacted on his attendance. (Equipment through Access to work ...flexible working hours..working from home and more)

In turn other staff were under pressure when he was off, targets were not met and SLAs were slipping. I felt really sorry for him...but it just wasn't sustainable.

If you have paid into an NHS pension scheme for that many years will you still be able to claim it if they sacked you.

Being dismissed has no impact on your pension. Totally seperate.

You can only use disability for mental health as a reason to appeal against dismissal of you were marked down as absent due to mental health problems , it’s sounds like all the other random illnesses have triggered the sick policy .

I agree in principle with the above poster. However I have shown through the last six months that I have engaged with external support services and accessed counselling. I’ve worked really hard to improve my mental health. I’m not going to let this set me back.
I think though that my reputation was never going to be salvageable. It’s viewed as a weakness even by the NHS rather than an illness.
Partly this is why I’m hopeful of a fresh start. I don’t know what that’ll look like and it’s likely that financially things are going to be extremely tough. But I don’t know that yet. I do know that I’m stronger than I’ve been in years. I’ve survived a lot of battles.

Isn't that still discrimatoey though? People with mental illness still get physical illnesses, in fact I suspect more frequently than others.

Are you a Paramedic by any chance? The NHS are notoriously heavy handed on sick records with them. My partner knows this well but it was the best thing ever. He works privately for events now.

The nhs are always horrible to ill staff.

Actually, I think that is untrue. I could give you many examples of compassion and support for ill staff. Sandy is right saying that the public sector is much more lenient. That said, in the end sometimes departments simply cannot sustain high absence levels. It's horrible to be on the receiving end of that, and I really hope OP that this actually turns out to be a great start for you

They’ve applied the policy to the letter so I doubt there are grounds for appeal.

That depends. Were all your sickness periods linked to your depression and had your employer sought to put reasonable adjustments in place to help you? Did you see Occ Health and were their suggestions acted upon?

I know you aren’t in a union but you might have legal cover as part of your home insurance and, if so, that will give you access to legal advice. Otherwise I hope ACAS or CAB will be able to help you out - it is definitely worth appealing because you have nothing to lose. Good luck and I am sorry this has happened to you.

Yes stealthpolarbear but episodes of sickness count no matter what they are , I’ve been on he receiving end of it myself I was off with post natal depressiona fter my baby then when I returned I was off with d&v etc I felt they were somehow suggesting I’d used up all my sick time on mental problems so should for some strange reason be healthy physically . It’s crap but sounds like they have got her out based on periods of illness that weren’t mental related in order to get her out .

I am really sorry for you that you have lost your job.
I think that some managers are under pressure from the SHRA’s to deal with sickness to this level. In my career I have known mostly managers who do bend over backwards to keep an employee - one had a Bradford of over 5000... but it was all related to one issue, not multiple issues as in your case. I think that your mental health issues could have been classed as a disability (but perhaps they were not) and then these last 3 episodes tipped it over the edge.

I hope you do get your fresh start

Practically...

Can you go on the bank, or agency. Your sickness is then your own issue.

I went on the bank, as full time and night shifts + endometriosis were killing me, and actually it isn't bad at all. Bit scary to start as after 15 years in the NHS I was fairly institutionalised to the good terms and conditions (sickness, leave etc). You can keep your NHS pension ticking along that way too.

Good luck, don't panic!

OP I remember you from another thread.

Your mental illness, my mother suffered from too, is one such that it can result in very evident and very inappropriate and negligent behaviour. I'm not suggesting that this happened, but given your extremely recent struggles with alcohol - do you think this may have led to a situation whereby your future employment was untenable?

This is the law..

If your employer can prove that drugs or alcohol have had a detrimental impact on your ability to do your job, you may be dismissed. They must have a good reason to justify dismissal, related to your conduct or capability.

You may be sacked if your conduct is so bad that it means you’ve broken one or more of the terms of your employment, for example: continually missing work; showing poor discipline; evidence of drug or alcohol abuse; or theft or dishonesty.

Your employer should follow a fair disciplinary procedure before dismissing you for misconduct. Under this procedure they may also consider help and other interventions such as counselling.

It's complicated....but going into a final stage hearing without being adequately prepared and having a good case to present in your defence would almost seal the case for management.

I don't mean to be harsh...but I get the impression you didn't think dismissal would happen from your opening post.
This has reminded me - if there could be an outcome of dismissal from a meeting, they have to warn you that's the case, in writing when they ask you to attend. So if the OP had no idea she could be losing her job, they may well have failed to follow a fair process...another reason to get advice from acas' and/or an employment law expert.

I haven’t read the full thread but I was dismissed from the nhs for sickness. I held the same post for 25 years and had no sickness at all in the previous 6 years then suffered an injury. One surgery failed and I was dismissed while waiting for further surgery.

It hurt like hell but now, a few years down the line I’m at peace with it. In truth I wasn’t capable of doing my job. It was badly handled, though and like you done to the letter so nothing I could do.

I did actually claim Ill health retirement successfully later on when the second surgery had also failed. That took a long long time but I do now have it for life.

There are other avenues in life and unfortunately the nhs doesn’t like sick staff. I think they have a particular dislike of mental health and bad backs because of their risk of returning. That’s just my observation though. Get well and then consider your next move.

OP so let’s have a look at the situation with fresh eyes.
You are now in the situation where all opportunities are open. What wouod you like to do? You say the NHS isn’t for you anymore. Long hours, not a lot back but a hell of a lot of pressure.
So what else would you like to do? Maybe you will need to retrain (and actually it could even be the right time for you to apply!). Maybe yu have other ideas??

In the mean time, the NHS is desperate for nurses. Lots of them are working as agency, which means more pay and the ability to chose when you work/what you want. Could you do that in the mean time whilst you get your head around it all and get an idea of how you can move forward?

In haste - but might be worth checking out your home insurance to see if you have legal cover that could help with this. Even if it’s to get it changed so that you had a medical discharge (not sure of actual term!) rather than being sacked, it might sound better and make it easier to get a new job...

It happens even more often in the private sector.

Talk to ACAS to see if they’ve followed procedure, and sign up for unemployment benefit etc. Otherwise, dust yourself off and start looking for a better job.

had your employer sought to put reasonable adjustments in place to help you?

They reduced my duties on return last time

OP... on your honest opinion...have they been fair and supportive? What more do you think they could have or should have done?

Where they explicit in the invite letter to the meeting thst dismissal was a possible outcome?

If not...that could be grounds for appeal.

People are getting really confused on this thread. A 'sickness' (and, actually it is absence, not sickness) dismissal is for capability, not conduct. You are not 'capable' of doing your job if you are not there to do it - but this is not a conduct issue (sorry, I am aware this sounds harsh but it's the bones of the law).

There are no statutory rules around how to manage capability dismissal, the conduct dismissal procedure in the ACAS guidelines does not apply (though it is good practice to apply it).

www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/f/m/Acas-Code-of-Practice-1-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures.pdf

"Disciplinary situations include misconduct and/or poor performance.
If employers have a separate capability procedure they may prefer
to address performance issues under this procedure. If so, however,
the basic principles of fairness set out in this Code should still be
followed, albeit that they may need to be adapted."

@RaindropsOnKittens43 This for example: "This has reminded me - if there could be an outcome of dismissal from a meeting, they have to warn you that's the case, in writing when they ask you to attend. So if the OP had no idea she could be losing her job, they may well have failed to follow a fair process...another reason to get advice from acas' and/or an employment law expert."

....is from the conduct dismissal procedure. It does not apply (in law) to capability.

Unless the employer has another process that is contractual, in which case that needs to be considered - NHS policies are contractual (as they are union negotiated) so they must be followed or there is a breach of contract.

I can understand when a long term problem - such a knee or hip replacement will result in very long periods of sickness and no guarantee of rehabilitation, this may result in the employee being found unfit for the role and in the NHS, it’s not always easy to find the golden ‘alternative role’ aka a desk job.

The NHS is far more tolerant than a lot of private sector industries where they do not even pay anywhere near the level of sick pay. You get a substantial amount of sick leave at full pay then half pay, over 2 years (often the period they consider) this can add up to a considerable amount

Also bear in mind from an operational point of view, you will then need to find a bank worker to cover this sickness - this is double cost to the NHS. You can see why they have to address it in all honesty.

I think it is unfair to assume the NHS is intolerant of certain medical conditions, fact being the trigger is usually 100 Bradford and then there are informal and formal stages to follow. If during the period after your 1st and 2nd review you continue to have sickness managers are left with little choice but to proceed with the final stage

I think working bank and agency might suit you - you can choose your own working patterns!

You will be ok! I won't go into my story, but trust me, it may seem bad now, but this time next year you'll look back and laugh. Their loss not yours!!