My Dad has split from his fiance - Pre-Nuptial disagreement.

[firehousedog]

So last night i got a phone call fromm my Dad. He has split up with his fiance. My Dad is 68 and she is 65 and they met on internet dating three years ago. Basically Dad insisted she sign a pre-nuptial agreement as in the house will be left to myself and my brother should anything happen to him one day, whilst she would have had been left with his Villa in Spain and his pension. She has four elder children, but was living in a womans refuge when Dad met her, my Dad cleared her personal debts, took her on numerous holidays abroad, cruises, etc. She literally has no assets or anything to her name. She apparently kicked off big time and said she would make sure things were done properly in the event of anything happening to my Dad and she refused to sign. My Dad is gutted. He really doesn't want to be alone in this stage of life. Do you think we should tell Dad to put off the pre-nup and let it go or has he dodged a bullet with this one?

Dodged a fucking bullet! Jeez CF of the year to your dads fiancé.

I find all this baffling. If the father had good legal advice, then a prenup would not be necessary. Why did he decide to go down the prenup route at all?

I also do not like this implication that because she was 'in the gutter' she should be grateful for anything that she gets because it is better than that. How fucking nasty and judgemental. She should jolly well stay in the gutter, eh? 'Cos that is all she is worth, eh?

The one thing that would piss me off is that there is no mention of the widow being able to live in the house until her death. I would absolutely not marry a man and move into a house that I could not make my home with him. A house that on the death of my husband I would have to leave immediately so that my stepchildren could get their hands on my husband's money. At the age of, lets say 85, I would have to sell a villa overseas and start all over again making a home. Nope, I would tell him to get stuffed and walk.

Ok i agree with that Shumpa hopefully op will return to clear the matter of is she would be allowed to stay in the house till she sees fit to move out.

I still don't understand how if she was married to him how she wouldn't legally be the sole benefitary to the estate. How could he thereafter dictate with his will alone that the house goes to the children?

I don't know. The way she has thrown her toys out the pram and packed her bags does not shine well with me. If she loved him she would compromise on this issue. She is still getting a good deal. Part of me thinks she is angling at providing for her children after her death. op said she has four children. His children would be right to be agrieved if instead of the house being split two ways, it got split 6 ways, if they were lucky to even see that much.

I don’t get some of the posts on here...
it’s not her fucking house! OPs parent says have paid into it all their lives and want it to go to their children, why should she get to live in it forever? It’s not even OPs Dad who wants to get married, it’s her, so saying ‘wel if she is his skivvying wife and puts up with him for 10 years she should be allowed to stay for as long as she wants, as well as his pension and Spanish villa’ is madness.

Imagine a gender reversal - OPs Mum with the same amount of assets, takes in a guy without two pennies to run together, who’s debts she pays off and funds a luxurious lifestyle for, who pushes for marriage and ends the relationship when he realises he can’t have the house hat she and her ex partner intended for her children, but will only get her pension and holiday villa.

I mean, come on people!

Surely a spouse is only sole beneficiary of the estate if there's no will.

If there's a will he can leave it all to the cats home if he wants.

Dodged a bullet

Similar happened with my dad

He didnt do a prenup and she got half of everything and an admittedly small monthly maintenance

I still don't understand how if she was married to him how she wouldn't legally be the sole benefitary to the estate. How could he thereafter dictate with his will alone that the house goes to the children?

I'm not sure either. We need a property lawyer to shed light!

Part of me thinks she is angling at providing for her children after her death. op said she has four children. His children would be right to be agrieved if instead of the house being split two ways, it got split 6 ways, if they were lucky to even see that much.

She could well be mercenary and I agree that I wouldn't trust her to leave property to OP and her siblings. And I agree her DC should not inherit his property.

Well whos to say if he did a will after the marriage and it put her nose out of joint in the process and in retaliation she divorced him? She would run off with 50% of the house, no? Would his will be respected on divorce?

OH and I have an agreement if either of us goes first, our children will always be the priority.

He could always set up a trust as we have done. Those things are damn near unbreakable.

I thought the fact it was a prenup just meant that he was actually more worried about a divorce (because as everyone's pointed out, he could just change his will), so was dancing around it with the "ooooh if I die..." aspect. Maybe that was to avoid looking callous or mercenary to either her or either sets of children, who knows.

OP's parents are divorced so he's probably accutely aware of the "risk" he runs with his DC's inheritance by remarrying now, particularly when there's such a disparity between his finances and his exDF's.

She's been assured of getting a foreign property, pension and a decent standard of living during the course of the marriage (including paying off of debts built up prior to the relationship)- given they're both presumably retired and they're not accruing any assets that's pretty decent. Having DC herself you'd think she'd see where he was coming from, trying to make sure your kids are alright.

In practice it would have been a nightmare to kick an 80+ year old bereaved spouse out of a house. Bad idea. And to explain to her dc when you have known them 20 years plus that she is now being kicked out and you will get a share of the marital assets but they won’t. So the pre-nup was a good idea but she has not signed up to it or suggested an alternative, such as right to reside, which would have been very reasonable.

if you make a will before marriage but specify it is in contemplation of marriage it is not invalidated by marriage

a will does not have to leave everything to your spouse in fact in my countries you can not disinherit your children

In scotland both spouse and children are entitled as a minimum to a third of all moveable assets ie cash jewellery stocks shares pensions furniture art etc this means the main property could be left to wife or historically eldest son but the rest had a claim on the estate so could not be left destitute ( dates back to pre-benefit days) and the remaining third to whoever they wanted

you can leave more than a third but not less so if you have a wife and 3 children the minimum is wife 33% and each child 11% the other 33% can be left how you like you could give wife 66.6% of assets and all the property but not more

so in scotland you can't leave your whole estate to the cat's home

I believe in france you can't disinherit your children either

Articuno no the point is she could be 95, infirm, have cared for the DD/DH for decades and suddenly be essentially out on the street, trying to sort out a property in Spain that she needs to sell to put a roof over her head!

My FIL and his partner have written mirror wills that they can each stay in their house in the event of the other's death and then when it is sold it will be divided between his children and her niece. They decided against getting married primarily I think because he was worried about how his children might react (their relationship came after all children were grown up and the death of MIL). I think they had been together for a good ten years at this point and both had brought assets into the relationship and so felt this was a fair way both to provide for each other and for the next generation, and everyone accepted it as entirely contentious and sensible. Marriage as a legal contract is not very nuanced which is tricky when there are children from previous relationships to consider.

"no the point is she could be 95, infirm, have cared for the DD/DH for decades and suddenly be essentially out on the street"

Well, talk about pre-nups could have been the starting point for further negotiations to prepare for exigencies like this. Perhaps right-to-reside, or a guaranteed spot in a nice nursing home, etc. But no, she threw a fit and refused to listen to his concerns. He did the right thing breaking up with her. As others have said, he dodged more bullets than in a John Woo movie.

"Well, talk about pre-nups could have been the starting point for further negotiations"

But from the OP, it doesn't appear to have been-her father was insisting that a prenup be signed.

Why doesn't he sell the house and split the proceeds fairly with your mother. It's much cleaner and they can both choose to do whatever they wish with the proceeds. It's then straightforward and he either leaves his property to her or to you, or splits it between you and your mother's entitlement doesn't come into it.

If your DF doesn't do this and the 'family' property remains in his name anyway, then the house may have to be sold anyway in order to pay for his care. Then what happens if your DM needs the money for care? She's then left without that asset.

No-one has thought this through at all and it's potentially very messy, whether he marries this woman or not!!

And I wouldn't marry a man who would be happy to see me essentially homeless upon his death. Having to sort out the sale of a villa in Spain (and not knowing the implications of inheriting such) whilst grieving would not be a 'kindness' to his wife. Of course, much depends on the pension and whether that would be enough to pay rent on a property and to live comfortably, but if it isn't, then actually, he's being pretty horrible to someone he professes to love and want to marry. I'd do the same in her shoes - I'd rather know where I stand before anything happens and if that meant walking away now with nothing then fine - better than being left in a mess at your most vulnerable time.

Dodged a bullet.

The danger s she comes back, agrees to sign it and they marry. Then she divorces him in a few years and tries to get as much as she can.

And it is possible to,write a will which writes your spouse out of it. My dad left his house to me and my brother. Not to his new wife. It’s complicated but she wasn’t left homeless as she lived in her house not my dads house. He left her money.

She sounds like a liability and now that she knows the house won't be here...she's done.

I've seen and heard enough cases where stepmum or step dad agree they'll look after the step children and keep all the assets.

People assume she'll be the carer...they are similar ages and he could end up being the carer.

she threw a fit and refused to listen to his concerns you have no idea what he listened to or how reasonable he was because what we have is a story filtered from the "wounded party" via his daughter. I'm sure her daughter has a very different version!
Op doesn't talk about how her Dad is heartbroken because he loved her much but because he doesn't want to be alone. He's basically paid for her companionship and new she won't fall into line with approved response to his final payment offer!

Can your father sign the house over to the children before he marries but continue to live there? That way it would be a non issue

they are similar ages and he could end up being the carer.

Indeed- OP's DDad sounds fit and active for his age, there's no indication in her posts he's looking for a nursemaid for his twilight years like some posters seem to be foreseeing. I don't think we can assume that it's the woman who's always "left"- that's certainly not the case in my own family.

Still think he's more bothered about the divorce potential than death with regards to the prenup. And from her reaction i wonder if he was worried about that, hence suggesting the prenup in the first instance.

Well I spoke to Dad again last night. Apparently the pre-nup allowed for 24 months after his passing before the house was transferred to my brother and myself. She kicked off saying that in a marriage you become as one big family and what is hers is his and what is his is hers. I said do you think she meant that in her view her children would have been entitled to an equal share of the family home as myself and brother and he said yes that is how he interpreted her argument. The Villa is worth about £25k apparently. Not sure what his pension is but he on about £45k p.a. so its probably quite considerable. Enough to be very comfortable on anyway. Anyway it seems like the relationship has completely broken down and there is little or no chance of return. She has already packed her bags and gone to one of her daughter's house. Like some on here have suggested I said to him about perhaps taking the house off the table as such for any future relationships he starts and putting it in trust and I think he is going to speak to his solicitor about what that avenue entails.

Your dad has definitely dodged a bullet!