Really genuinely..is it ever better to stay together for the kids?

[GoodAfternoonSeattle]

This really.

I don’t want to go into too much detail. We have two very young kids. Three and nearly one.

It’s just not working any more.

I have a relative who is high up in education. Her view, in her experience, is that divorce and separation is very damaging to children. And I can’t do that to my girls.

But how can it not be damaging to grow up in an environment where your parents are always sniping and bickering? I mean we would never have a full on shouting match with the girls there but it’s low level horribleness.

What do you do then? Spend your life pretending that it’s all ok? Swallow down the sniping and the rage till the girls are old enough that they won’t be damaged?

They come first and I’ll do what it takes to keep them happy and normal but something needs to change.

Your relative is wrong and probably has her own reasons for trying to force you to stay in an unhappy marriage. How can it be better for children to grow up in a hostile situation and even if it's not hostile interactions will be muted and abnormal. Also far better to do it know at the ages your children are. Mine were 4 and 2 and barely noticed, they've never really remembered anything else.

Now not know.

I grew up knowing that when I was 18 my mum was going to leave. She was waiting for me. It’s an awful position to be put in when you are 8 years old.

40 years on and they are still together.

I don’t see much of them.

From my experience, it's not great for children to grow up around unhappy and dysfunctional relationships, but if they're going to, it's better at least if it's both their biological parents. It's not as black and white as unhappy together or happy single, lots of people go on to have unhappy relationships with future partners.

The problem is that he won’t talk.

If I try to talk to him all he says is “I don’t want to separate. I don’t want to separate. I’ll be better I swear” and then nothing changes.

if you were happy together and got on well I would also say stay it is it and get counselling but you have said there is low level horribleness- that isn’t good and is likely to escalate

As long as you are both civil afterwards then your kids won’t be harmed

The risk comes imo when another partner comes on the scene. Blended families etc

Like Seth I have several friends whose parents split up when they left for uni. They struggled far more and some still do ( we are in our forties) knowing that they were responsible for their parents remaining together when they were unhappy.
I am divorced yes my DD has struggled at times and my ExH has behaved very badly at times. But I held myself together ensured that she had a consistent safe home with me and I am proud to say she is growing up a strong confident girl who knows that she and she alone is responsible for her own happiness.

If there's no abuse then I think the best option would be for both of you to realise that 'putting the children first' means not bickering and sniping.

My now adult daughter told me she wishes her father and I divorced long before we actually did. I suspect that leaving it until children are more aware of the toxic atmosphere and start to blame themselves can be far more damaging than a divorce when they are very young.

My parents split when I was 3, I didn't remember it and i've got a great relationship with both of them, as I got older it was just the way it was seeing my Dad every other week. What would be damaging is a young together when you don't want, arguing all the time and creating a horrible atmosphere for your DC and then splitting up much later

being not young, sorry

My honest answer is that where abuse isn’t taking place, it’s better to try and stay together.

It’s not just the fact that their parents are no longer together, but further down the line they would almost certainly have to accept stepparents and stepbrothers or sisters and possibly even other half siblings.

That’s tough because blended families are not great (sorry, I know that won’t be popular.)

But only you know how bad it is.

Staying together for the DC works only when you both see it as a wake up call, both want to make the relationship work and have points of commonality about what that means, and of course both actually do the changes which make it happen (even if there's a fair amount of 'act as if' in the early days)

He seems to be paying lip service to this, rather than actually doing it.

I think you should consider setting a mental deadline (without telling him) for how long you are prepared to make a genuine effort and see if it is met by effort on his part. And then, based on what he does not what he says, think hard about whether you think relationship renewal is well under way or if it is time to draw a line.

It is a whole lot easier to separate when the children are very young like yours, than to try and attempt it further down the line when they are older. It can be very damaging later on for sure, especially if it ends up being at a stage in their education when it really counts.

I would say it is most damaging after the age of five? At14/15 you can rely on the fact that they are otherwise engaged being a teen, and under 5s may not notice so much and will grow up accepting their set up as it is.

If you are seriously unhappy now, and can not see any kind of improvement and have had counselling I would think it much much better for your children to organise your lives whilst they are so young and won't know the difference.

A nasty bitter family to grow up in is no picnic and one of you will most likely walk at some point.

An orderly considered separation is always better.

Her view, in her experience, is that divorce and separation is very damaging to children. And I can’t do that to my girls.

Work done in Sweden seems to show that it’s not the divorce per se that causes issues. It’s the behaviour of the adults during the process.

If you can remain civil, amicable, and not use the children as weapons then your outcome is much better. The problem being that divorce very often does get nasty.
Staying together in a toxic environment isn’t good for them either - they do pick up on it, regardless of what people say, and they will model their expectations of adult relationship on what you two do and say.

I personally think that with such young kids, of you can separate amicably, that’s much better all round.

My parents stayed together 'for the kids' - I truly bloody wished they hadn't. From the age of me being 4/5 years they wanted to separate but didn't until I was 11 yrs.

It damaged my childhood and my relationship with them as an adult. I'm angry that I had to listen to them bicker and have digs and always do one upmanship. I'm angry that they assume I wasn't aware of it all and think they did right by me.

I'm angry that my dad still to this day paints himself as a poor Angel who did his best and it was all my mum...then he'll end the convo with how she was a great mum and a far better parent than him. The confusing messages I get are ridiculous and I'm sick of hearing about their issues.

They both have a lot of bitterness and neither accept it nor would entertain counselling to get closure. It's been a very unhealthy situation made worse by them still bloody trying to stay friends after they split despite is begging them to stay away from each other for our sakes.

Honestly do your kids a favour and split up if things are bad between you. Never stay together only for your kids. My only good recollection of their relationship was when my mum finally moved out and although they stayed in regular contact the bickering and arguing and spitefullness was greatly reduced which gave us respite.

I think that's quite an old fashioned way of thinking. Nowadays divorce is a lot more common than it was and there's less stigma. Your kids probably have several friends whose parents are no longer together. The thing is if you stay together the children are highly likely to be exposed to things like arguments and an unpleasant atmosphere, I'd say it's much better for there to be a clean break, get them into the new routine as soon possible and maybe get them some councelling if they need it.

I too grew up in a bitter angry family, and it was truly awful. It ruined my childhood and my sense of peace and contentment.

I also wish my parents had split up, they would have both been much happier individually. We would have been much happier too.

Teaching your child to live with silent anger and bubbling resentment is not a good thing! (yes they will know too from a young age) and what is difficult now might very well be unbearable once your dc are older and have a voice.

If a couple are amicable, and co-parent well despite everything, then maybe. But in the situation you describe, no. How easy is it going to be to put a lid on the arguing in front of them in ten years time when you have put your life on hold and now your nearly teenager is being a teenager and playing you off against one another? Come up with a settled separated arrangement that means they have regular contact with both of you, a home to call their own and two happier parents. He might need some time to get jsed to the idea and step up though.

To add to my post above, I have no negativity attached to their separation - only relief.

Your friend has not conducted a control study in which we look at the outcomes for dc of divorced couples v dc of couples in lasting but damaging, acrimonious marriages.

Divorce is an obvious and widely reported state, but crushing unhappiness is much quieter. Teachers can blame divorce because they can see it more easily.

Dc of parents in happy, loving relationships are dead lucky, for sure. But that's not what you're dealing with, and your friend's blindness to the effects of unhappy home lives within marriage should not convince you to stay.

The choice for you is: do I stay with a 100% certainty that I will be miserable and thus so will my dc? Or do I divorce and try to carve out some happy for us?

I am sorry you are faced with this.

God, i wish my parents had separated when I was little. My life would have been so much better.

Oh and try your best to avoid ‘staying together for the kids’ for 14 years like my parents did and then splitting up a month before the youngest (me) took gcse’s . Thanks guys. Despite the timing, I still supported the reason and the split.

It isn’t the divorce that hurts. I’m my experience it’s the blended/ step/ half sibling shit that comes about!
I’ve also seen how second families ( especially the kids) do better. Primarily as the father had learnt how to do a bit more, support his 2nd relationship and play a bigger part in his new children’s lives.
The children have to watch their half siblings have ‘their’ Dad - all the time etc..
You can’t not divorce because of this - but is fucking dreadful to be a child from the 1st relationship.
It doesn’t get any better when children of the 1st family have kids - the second family children do better on this front too. Grandparents together, and showing preference for that easier set up with their blood ( together) Grandchildren.
Weddings...

Your relative is probably seeing children whose parents have had conflict. I know several separated families and the children (and parents) are far happier now as they know where they stand. To be fair, these are children whose parents have put them first - they do sports days together, DC see their father twice a week, parents are nice about each other and have never told DC why they separated (affairs in one case, grown apart and arguing in the other).

I had assumed most people would be this way as it’s best for the children. If you are able to be calm, bite your tongue when ex annoys you, give the children a stable home environment - all that has to be better than growing up in a horrible atmosphere. They will pick up on the undercurrents of unhappy parents and believe that’s the norm for a family.