Estranged from Children

[Farnhammum11]

I am feeling utterly bereft and need advice. Let me explain...

My daughter and I fell out several years ago over something really silly. She initially went to live with her paternal grandmother (who never liked me) and then with her father and his new wife. Despite my pleas she refused to come back home and it really broke my heart. Attempts to reconcile over the years, with the help of her brother, who is three years younger, never lasted. She really didn't want to have anything to do with me and would say "the time is not right". My friends and family would say that when she has children of her own she would get back in touch. So I clung to this like a drowning man clings to a life raft, despite my reservations that she may never have children because she had became anorexic when she went to live with her father and his wife.

In September 2012 her brother, who had been living overseas returned to the UK on a short business trip and he arranged for us to meet up with my daughter and her new partner for lunch. The lunch went well and at the end of it we exchanged telephone numbers and I really hoped that we could at last start to build bridges. She was, after all, 31 by this time. We exchanged text messages, despite the fact that it would take days for her to respond to my texts and my calls went unanswered. But I was patient. She was too busy to meet up before Christmas that year so we met after Christmas and exchanged gifts. We continued to text but it was taking her longer and longer to respond. She was also too busy to meet up for coffee/lunch. Then in August 2013 I received a text from her saying that she was getting married in October 2013 and that I was not being invited to the wedding as it was going to be a private affair with a handful of close friends. I felt extremely hurt. I know she has a right to invite who ever she wants to her wedding but it felt so callous to be told in that way. I felt as if I was being rejected by her all over again! I text her back and said she had really hurt me again and that I could not take it any more and said I would leave her alone to get on with her life.

However, although I said that I would leave my daughter alone I continued to seek updates on her life from my son who had remained in contact with her. My son and I have always been close and I thanked God that at least he had not turned his back on me. However, in August 2016, in a telephone conversation with my son he told me that my daughter had had a son who was nearly 12 months old. I couldn't believe what I was hearing at first and asked him to repeat it. Then it dawned on me that my son had kept this from me the whole time. All the video and telephone calls we had had and not once had he mentioned that she was pregnant or that she had given birth to a baby who was now nearly one. I asked him why he had not told me and he said that she had asked him not to tell me. I said but "I'm your mother, don't you think I would have liked to have known that my daughter had become a mother and that I had become a grandmother?" He messaged me a photograph of the baby and I was really grateful. I cried. I said I still couldn't believe that he had withheld this from me. This was such a significant event. My daughter had had a child. And suddenly I realised that if she hadn't reached out to me when she was pregnant and following the birth of her baby who was now nearly one, she never would! I became virtually hysterical at this point and demanded to know why he hadn't told me. I felt that he had betrayed me too. He said that she had told him that she would never speak to him again if he told me. I said but I'm your mother. His next words drove a steak through my heart "Do not make me choose between you and her!" He never sent me another photograph of the baby. And although I continue to ask how she is in every conversation I have with him he never tells me anything. Then four months ago he inadvertently told me that she was expecting another baby. I asked a million questions but his stock reply was "I don't know".

I went to stay with my son recently and we have spoken many times since my return but he let slip today that my daughter had given birth several weeks ago. I asked why he had not told me sooner. He said you know why! I again said "But I'm your mother. She is not going to know. I have no contact with her". I then asked him whether it was a boy or a girl. He hesitated and said "I think it's a girl. But I'm not discussing it any further". I am truly heart broken! I just can't believe that my son would not share this wonderful news with me even if I will never be able to see any of my grandchildren. I felt so hurt that I ended the telephone call. I feel really betrayed by my son and I feel that he has made his choice and chosen his sister. Am I wrong?

Are DearestMommy and the OP the same person?

I took it that they were different people but I am happy to be wrong about it!

DearestMommy mentioned her dd being an only child, so cant be OP?

i feel sorry for you OP. one day she might realise what she has done how would she like to be excluded from her childs life?

This makes for really sad reading. The idea that daughters would just ditch their mum for no real reason just doesn't ring true. I mean why? The work that op's daughter and dearestmommy's daughter have had to put in to become estranged is unfathomable.

Most of us struggle to end friendships and relationships that aren't working out. Never mind cutting off our own mother.

Let's face it. Going no contact is the hardest option here isn't it? Your daughters have chosen the hardest path. Why would that be? I mean if they're so selfish then surely they'd just use you for all they could (childcare, inheritance etc). So keep looking at your role in this.

Op what you dont get is that a mother child bond is like no other. Its the very first bond a child experiences and the strongest. For your daughter to not want anything to do with you is screaming that something really bad happened.

She has had life changing events when she had her children. Being a mother herself would have made her mellow towards you if the issue wasnt serious. But for most people it seals the deal as they realise that they would never treat their own children like what they had gone through. You are clearly in denial.

I find it very telling that the OP has not returned to the thread. Assume she is so used to trotting out her narrative of her bad cruel and unreasonable DD, her overriding rights as a mother and spill her crocodile tears to people around her who are probably either completely unaware of the real facts or won’t challenge her delusional, narcissistic crap. That said I find the other professionally wronged mother more insidious because she pretends to be semi-sympathetic and spouted some of the self-help lingo. But I doubt that any therapy will help because someone so narcissistic and self-obsessed will just cherry-pick the stuff that supports their spurious claims than admit to even herself that she has driven her DD away. I feel very sad for all the children involved. It reiterates what I have read by everyone’s experiences here and on especially, the ‘Stately Home’ thread, there is simply no point trying to debate with a narcissistic, emotionally abusive parent. All it does, is to cause further pain and perpetuates the gas-lighting and emotional abuse, with no genuine acknowledgement and apology forthcoming. Neither of the ‘wronged’ mothers will see their DD or DGC unless, possibly if they step up and without any self-serving excuses, actually for once in their life, acknowledge what they did, apologise and accept their full responsibility for the estrangement. The only slight positive is that these narcissistic parents cannot just peddle their usual self-pitying crap without being challenged and their bullshit being called out!

I'm posting here mainly so that the thread is in my tio as it is so helpful to me, especially the link which perfectly hits the nail on the head! Echoing others, no one flippantly cuts out their mother. My own mum would (and I'm sure does) say that I am an awful person who is never happy and that being the oversensitive cow I am I took offense over something silly. The truth is that she is a cruel cold overcritical woman who is only concerned with her public image, telling stories that cast her in a positive light whilst ignoring her own children until others are watching. She would act appallingly towards me and then buy me something or send me money, then if I tried to talk to her about what had happened she would bang on about how ungrateful I was and how could I do that to her?! I stopped accepting anything from her and that was wrong too. After attempting to have a calm discussion with her on numerous occasions and being brushed aside and told that I was making a fuss over nothing because I liked to cause trouble I decided to just walk away. I am not dancing for joy because as painful as that relationship was ultimately I have no mum now but at least I am no longer troubled with the crippling anxiety that always accompanied any contact with her. I sent her a long email explaining exactly why I could no longer have her in my life, giving examples of things she had done and how they had made me feel and guess what? She doesn't know what my problem is

Imblue, yes after I wrote and told my mother why I didn't want to answer her calls and emails and detailed what I was unhappy about, she wrote back one sentence "well I didn't get far through that tirade that seems to have been written from an alternate reality".

Says it all really, doesn't it?

I also emailed to explain, gently but firmly, what had hurt me so much.

I stuck to facts, didn't name call, just explained my side, my hurt, my feelings.

What I got back was 'how DARE you! I could refute EVERYTHING you have said! You say I'M manipulative, well, I have never met anyone more manipulative than YOU! After all we've done for YOU! You've put a stake through my heart. You say you need a break. Well. WE need a break from YOU. Why are you punishing us? What is your motivation? What have we done?'

Erm. Read the email? That's what you've done. That was the point of the email, after all.

And no, it wasn't an easy decision. Hardest decision ever to cut ties. I felt so guilty. I didn't do it with malice. And after trying LC, and it got so much worse, NC was the only option in the end, because she was poisoning my lovely children against me, as she want them to 'go off the rails' like we all did

What I got back was 'how DARE you
Sigh, it's a theme very familiar to me, anything contrary to the parent worldview is perceived as a personal attack and the response is a counter strike.

Calmly explaining your feelings in an email seems like such a good idea doesn't it, but whatever you say is used against you😒

That's the narc bit, the ego is so fragile that all perceived slights or criticism is a personal attack.

Well. WE need a break from YOU
I hope you said ,'cool let's kill two birds with one stone and never ever speak again' 😋

I think you need to take you son out of the equation

And stop using him as a peace broker your risking your relationship with him and him with his sisters

Yes, I was happy with their suggestion of a break

But turned out, they were emailing/knocking on the door within a day or so, so no such luck.

In fact, they've kept up the constant contact for 4 years now. To the point we involved the Police for harassment, but the officer took their side. In fact, she asked me had I tried Relate

It's difficult not to assume the officer was also a narcissist.

In fact, I see them everywhere now...

if an ex partner kept up constant contact for 4 years after you told them you wish to terminate the relationship then it would unequivocally be treated as harassment or stalking.
But parents apparently are allowed to do as they please and require no consent from their adult children?

I would hope that the police officer in your case was an outlier Gluteus and that most would have taken the side of the victim?

It makes me think of the old days when domestic violence was brushed aside as 'a domestic' because of course spouses are entitled to physically chastise each other

What a tragic thread. How shocking to see two narcissists seeking affirmation for for their behaviours - both the OP and Mommydearest. Very chilling. And totally demonstrating their inability to empathise or see other perspectives. Their poor children have my sympathies.

Yes, ohfortuna it makes my blood boil when I think about domestic violence, and how it was treated. Also rape within a marriage/relationship.

Still have a long way to go, but emotional abuse is getting more recognition. Not by the officer I dealt with mind!

Huge way to go with ex partners too, once you have children. The ex can be a narcissistic toxic poison, but still has rights to see the child. It’s such a mess.

Luckily my ex gave up after a couple of years.

Babymama - a lack of empathy chills me to the bone too. Their version of events is batshit. I’ve never yet worked out if they deliberately twist and manipulate with intent to lie, of if they genuinely believe what they’re saying/remember as truth.

Yy glue, for a long time I really thought I was going crazy because my mother would swear blind things I remembered clearly didn't happen or were completely different to my memory! Sorry there are so many of us going through this but I'm glad to "meet" others who get it.

Yes Imblue feeling crazy is a very common feeling.

The internet saved me, pretty much. I’d have never ever known about narcissists, or gaslighting, scapegoats, golden child, and all the other things I have learnt.

It all started one day with a google search ‘why doesn’t my mother love me?’

My eyes were opened massively, and my journey started. I understood and recognised everything.

And then there’s mumsnet. What a source that has been too. It’s a bittersweet glad I’m not alone, but sad so many of us didn’t have a parents true love.

Still. Cycle is broken and I love my kids to bits, in fact, having kids makes you really question everything. Could never be jealous of my own children. Or ever want to play them off against one another. Or hit them. Or hurt them in any knowing way.

Without the internet, it’s lonely because no one really gets it. It’s a bit taboo to cut off your own mum.

Their version of events is batshit. I’ve never yet worked out if they deliberately twist and manipulate with intent to lie, of if they genuinely believe what they’re saying/remember as truth.

In my mother's case I think she believes it, at least in part. DH used to say that she sits there brooding over and over something and basically invents a new narrative, which she believes. And nothing can enter her consciousness as negative about her, so she'll turn it round to make her the victim. So, when she was slagging of DH and I asked her not to, this became that he had turned me against her, not that she'd overstepped all boundaries and been really rude. It became that he wanted to destroy my relationship with her and had poisoned me against her. She then believes that. Or she kind of half remembers stuff and then embellishes and twists it to suit her own narrative.

The ego must be protected at ALL costs.

Not necessarily the OPS fault.Plenty of children find fault with parents when it suits them .If you fall out ,you can justify to yourself doing nothing for the people who spent their time and effort bringing you up.

How typical. We only get half the story and then OP flees the scene after not being hailed as an innocent victim.

Her poor son, if I had a mother like that I would do the same thing.