Estranged from Children

[Farnhammum11]

I am feeling utterly bereft and need advice. Let me explain...

My daughter and I fell out several years ago over something really silly. She initially went to live with her paternal grandmother (who never liked me) and then with her father and his new wife. Despite my pleas she refused to come back home and it really broke my heart. Attempts to reconcile over the years, with the help of her brother, who is three years younger, never lasted. She really didn't want to have anything to do with me and would say "the time is not right". My friends and family would say that when she has children of her own she would get back in touch. So I clung to this like a drowning man clings to a life raft, despite my reservations that she may never have children because she had became anorexic when she went to live with her father and his wife.

In September 2012 her brother, who had been living overseas returned to the UK on a short business trip and he arranged for us to meet up with my daughter and her new partner for lunch. The lunch went well and at the end of it we exchanged telephone numbers and I really hoped that we could at last start to build bridges. She was, after all, 31 by this time. We exchanged text messages, despite the fact that it would take days for her to respond to my texts and my calls went unanswered. But I was patient. She was too busy to meet up before Christmas that year so we met after Christmas and exchanged gifts. We continued to text but it was taking her longer and longer to respond. She was also too busy to meet up for coffee/lunch. Then in August 2013 I received a text from her saying that she was getting married in October 2013 and that I was not being invited to the wedding as it was going to be a private affair with a handful of close friends. I felt extremely hurt. I know she has a right to invite who ever she wants to her wedding but it felt so callous to be told in that way. I felt as if I was being rejected by her all over again! I text her back and said she had really hurt me again and that I could not take it any more and said I would leave her alone to get on with her life.

However, although I said that I would leave my daughter alone I continued to seek updates on her life from my son who had remained in contact with her. My son and I have always been close and I thanked God that at least he had not turned his back on me. However, in August 2016, in a telephone conversation with my son he told me that my daughter had had a son who was nearly 12 months old. I couldn't believe what I was hearing at first and asked him to repeat it. Then it dawned on me that my son had kept this from me the whole time. All the video and telephone calls we had had and not once had he mentioned that she was pregnant or that she had given birth to a baby who was now nearly one. I asked him why he had not told me and he said that she had asked him not to tell me. I said but "I'm your mother, don't you think I would have liked to have known that my daughter had become a mother and that I had become a grandmother?" He messaged me a photograph of the baby and I was really grateful. I cried. I said I still couldn't believe that he had withheld this from me. This was such a significant event. My daughter had had a child. And suddenly I realised that if she hadn't reached out to me when she was pregnant and following the birth of her baby who was now nearly one, she never would! I became virtually hysterical at this point and demanded to know why he hadn't told me. I felt that he had betrayed me too. He said that she had told him that she would never speak to him again if he told me. I said but I'm your mother. His next words drove a steak through my heart "Do not make me choose between you and her!" He never sent me another photograph of the baby. And although I continue to ask how she is in every conversation I have with him he never tells me anything. Then four months ago he inadvertently told me that she was expecting another baby. I asked a million questions but his stock reply was "I don't know".

I went to stay with my son recently and we have spoken many times since my return but he let slip today that my daughter had given birth several weeks ago. I asked why he had not told me sooner. He said you know why! I again said "But I'm your mother. She is not going to know. I have no contact with her". I then asked him whether it was a boy or a girl. He hesitated and said "I think it's a girl. But I'm not discussing it any further". I am truly heart broken! I just can't believe that my son would not share this wonderful news with me even if I will never be able to see any of my grandchildren. I felt so hurt that I ended the telephone call. I feel really betrayed by my son and I feel that he has made his choice and chosen his sister. Am I wrong?

A random example of a "silly reason" to fall out:

www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/8fx4io/jnmom_douses_me_w_water_on_weekends_to_increase/

You'd be interested to hear it from the mother's perspective, wouldn't you?

You're wrong in being so upset with your son, yes. If your daughter has made it clear she doesn't want him to tell you, then it is her confidence he would be breaking.

I can understand it must be heartbreaking for you; but you're son is stuck in the middle.; and this is not his fault.

You say you fell out worh your daughter over something silly; but are sure this is the only thing..? Are you sure there's not more to it?

When you began contact again, did you ever actually talk/resolve anything?

Op how do you feel reading all of these replies?

Your poor son, you are totally wrong to put him in this position!

You are risking you relationship with your son if you insist on pushing him for information on your daughter and her children or punishing him for "withholding information" from you.

He asked you straight out not to make him choose, made his feelings very clear.

I don't understand why you would risk your relationship with your son over a non existent relationship with your daughter?

A very close friend is very LC with her mum. Their silly argument was my friend was seen by her mum smoking with a group of girlfriends in town one day. So she threw her out. Friend went to stay with her then boyfriend who was a horrible man who abused my friend, including locking her up for hours. When she was sexually assaulted by the boyfriend’s dad, she fled home and begged to be let back.

They didn’t believe anything she said and assumed because she’d also lied about smoking she was lying about everything else so they kicked her out.

She was 15.

If she hadn’t met the man she’s now spent 20 years with and had two beautiful children with, she says she’d probably be dead.

But her parents think they taught her a good lesson because only nasty girls smoke. I’m sure they think tough love cured her of lying and smoking. Her mum, according to Facebook and the occasional birthday card, is a doting and devoted mother and grandmother. It makes everyone feel sick to see it. Because my friend is still terrified of her parents she hasn’t gone completely nc but everyone knows what they’re like.

My friend still occasionally smokes. Her parents are still complete arseholes.

Because it's cut precisely from the standard cloth

Ok I get your point. I have been educated. Still, I think the harshness of the replies would do nothing to help a person see their own mistakes and some were very unkind. But point taken.

Still, I think the harshness of the replies would do nothing to help a person see their own mistakes

They won't see their mistakes, because they're not looking for them. They want to be told that they are right. The OP wants responses of the form "That's terrible. Think of how the grandchildren are harmed by not seeing their loving grandparents. It must put a stake through your heart every time you see pictures! You have rights, and your daughter is ungrateful and probably mentally ill." I have italicised the cliches that are trotted out.

Usually these self-serving narratives are about sons, and their controlling daughters-in-law who are jealous of the special bond that the poster has with their son, because daughters-in-law all want to control their husbands. This one is slightly different because it's about a daughter.

The "silly thing" will be weight, weddings, sex or education.

Am i the only one one who clicked on this thread to see if it was their own mother writing the op!?

MIL @Ivegotfamilyandidrinkcupsoftea

She doesn’t have the insight to ask for advice though.

I do think some of you have been a bit harsh. I know that there are some bad parents out there. But equally there are some equally toxic kids. Parents are just kids that have grown up. They don't know everything. They can't always get it right. They might think they are doing their best based on what their parents did. I had a very cold unloving set of parents. My reaction when I became a mum? To ensure I always showed love and affection all along right up to when my daughter left home and afterwards. Sadly, in her teens she became pretty withdrawn and angry. But I think I was patient and understood because she had had to witness parents arguing and finally divorcing. Being the only child I felt for her every time an argument broke out. I felt awful and tried to minimise the arguments. In the end she begged me to leave her dad as she could see I was so unhappy. So we moved on together. Her dad found another instant family very quickly got married and took great delight in telling his daughter how much happier he was than when he was with her and I. But the pain that I saw on her face was awful for me. I didn't care for him but I could have murdered him every time I saw her chin dimple that way it does when she was hurting even as a young adult. Moving on. We moved from the marital home. I met someone. She become very happy with the new partnership and he appeared to be a good loving almost step dad. She did leave home and moved into a flat with her new boyfriend, much to my dismay, but I thought it good that she was ready to spread her wings but made it clear that there was always a home if she wanted it. I bought her a car to enable her to get to a job and paid for the first two years insurance, paid for various repairs after accidents due to her erratic driving and helped her out in many ways as she lost several jobs in a short space of time. Meanwhile, sadly, as is his way it turned out, the new man in my life moved onto new pastures after 3 years. I was one of a string of ladies he had been involved with. Of course I had no idea because people don't tell you when you appear to be making their friend happy. Anyway, so I am pretty hurt and shocked at suddenly being entirely on my own. My daughter cannot cope with my distress, and backs off considerably. Not returning my calls and refusing to visit me until my sister said to her "she's your mum, she needs her family including you". She didn't like it and she reluctantly visited a few times then stayed away again for weeks. I was feeling wretched but conscious that I didn't want to appear needy so I admit I stopped calling her quite so much so kept my calls to about once a week. She only visited when she needed something from the house or needed money. I chatted to her one day about Christmas and asked her what she was going to do on Christmas day. She snapped at me feeling uncomfortable I'm sure and said she didn't know. I asked again about three times and got no answers. So feeling that I didn't want to be a burden to her I told her that some friends had invited me to Australia and would she mind if I went. She said no and appeared excited about my adventure. I went for Christmas seeing her on Christmas day morning before departing for the airport. She had planned to spend the rest of the day with her dad and his family but at the last minute he altered the arrangements which I could see had upset her greatly. I offered to alter my flight to the next day but she said no it was OK. Whilst away not only did she refuse to go and check the house for me but she told me she would not be collecting me from the airport when I returned. When I got back we had a couple of strained conversations but then she stopped calling me again and refused to take my calls and blocked my number. I tried to call her a lot I admit. I was at a loss to understand what I had done. I wanted to know. I wanted to listen to what it was that tipped her. I wanted to know what I could do to make amends. I was (and am) frustrated. I have lost my only daughter but with no explanation. No email, letter, text or phone call to list my crimes. No reason. Nothing. I admit to being so distressed I called her several times one evening. I called her boyfriend to try and find out what I had done. I drove to her flat and begged her to talk to me and she refused to open the door. The only contact I have received is letters and phone calls from the police saying that she has made a complaint against me for harassment and that I was not to attempt to contact her at all. That if I do try to contact her I will be charged. I have also had visits from police officers accompanying her to my house, no warning, demanding that I give her access to my loft space where she claims she has belongings. This has resulted in so much distress and mistrust. I have been accused of the most bizarre things. And I know that you will all be thinking "yeah I bet that's just a mother that doesn't listen and is probably toxic to her daughter" But what about a daughter just turning bad. What about a daughter just being vindictive because sadly she has parents that have never been able to be reasonable and show a united front with their offspring. I have begged her father to speak to me and tell me what is wrong. He just sent a solicitor's letter saying that he doesn't ever want to hear from me no matter what. That our daughter is an adult and there is NEVER any reason for us to be in contact. That is that. I have to accept that I may never see my daughter again. I have no real reason what tipped the scales. If I did, I know I have the humility to accept how she feels and try to make amends. I know when I have made mistakes in the past I am more than ready to apologise and accept my part in the problem. And I have throughout this episode. I feel I have almost apologised for breathing sometimes. I've committed some crime which I will never know as she has refused to tell me. Just says how did you expect me to turn out with all that arguing. Well her other parent was party to those arguments but she is now spending her time visiting him and his new family after almost a year of giving him the silent treatment too. I guess what I am saying, don't assume it's always the parent at fault. Some kids are just plain nasty and then can't climb down from it out of pride and stubborness. Sorry I had to say it and just wanted to stick up for the poor lady that started this thread. For my part I feel like my only child is gone from my life like she had died. It is a bereavement. It is a loss like no other and the pain is awful. it is much worse than losing a partner i know that. We can't be perfect. We can't always get it right. What mistakes we make are not deliberate. For my part I wanted my daughter to be independent and able to live on her own wits and efforts. I wanted her to strike out and be free to live her life as she saw fit. I didn't want a daughter that lived under my roof forever and rely on constant handouts. I wanted her to have a good work ethic, which I hope she now has. I am proud of how sassy and tough she can be. I, like many mothers, wanted to give loving guidance when asked, but let her find her own way. I believed I had done that. But I am most certainly in a place where i was damned if I did and damned if I didn't. If I didn't comment or offer advice she would accuse me of not caring. If I showed care she would accuse me of interfering. It really was that hard. But what's done is done and I am now a woman that will probably never see her marry, have children or anything. All I can hope is that she matures into a strong, loving person and has a good life. That is all I can do. That and lick my wounds and recover from the terrible loss and get on with my life without my daughter who I adored (maybe too much). Please, when you young mums are ranting about your awful mothers remember you may well find yourselves in a similar situation where you thought you were doing it differently and better than your own parents. I'll get off my soapbox now.

I am so sorry for my lack of paragraphs. That must be a hard read. I was typing as I thought.

Also can I add that yes, I do take responsibility for a lot of my daughter's angst.

I have been in counselling for almost a year and naturally, this episode with my daughter has become a large part of my counselling. I do not lack insight. I am not lacking in empathy. I don't lack humility and am not narcissistic as many people seem to love calling just about anyone they have fallen out with.

Please, please don't make such snap judgments. Try a walk in another's shoes before making such harsh judgements.

So ‘Mommy Dearest’, you managed to make this very much all about you in this massive long post. The problem I have with such posts, is that it does tend to be very light on the actual impact on or events in the kid’s life, leading to such estrangement. In the OP’s case, she completely downplayed and gave no concrete context of their ‘silly’ argument whatsoever. In all fairness to you, you have shown a little bit more insight into how your issues might have affected your DD. BUT it is still mostly all about you and you blame her for stuff that to an outsider seems very apparently connected to how much you involved her with your acrimonious split. You were the adult and should have not put that much on her young shoulders. Am puzzled that you struggle so much to understand why your DD apparently cut you out. The first thing that stood out abundantly clear is that she was burdened with your marital fallout far more than any kid should. So, it sounds very much like when your subsequent relationship broke down too, your DD probably could not bear to be once again overwhelmed by your unhappiness and you piling so much of your issues on her shoulders. I think that you are minimising the trauma you have caused her and are ‘editing’ events to very much blame her for this estrangement. Emotional abuse isn’t always intentional. Sometimes, parents are to weak to be actual parents and just subjected their kids to far too much rather than deal with their own shit. I personally think it was incredibly manipulative to push your DD to be your agony aunt a second time round.

Of course it's about me. I am writing this.

That's a bit of a silly thing to say really. It's my story. Other's have their story. Their thoughts. Their feelings. I can't write anyone else's now can I?
I would love to have that conversation with my daughter, but I never will. I never could. She is a closed person that will not open up. I know that and understand that. I just have to learn to live with it.

I take my punishment like a grown up. I don't blame everyone else. I played my part. I know my weaknesses, we all have them. We can't all be superhuman. It is impossible. Sometimes life just breaks you. It just does.

I will never judge people because they just weren't strong enough and didn't manage to keep on smiling through regardless. In these days of enlightenment over mental fragility in all generations I still find the attitude of some people a bit shocking. Crying when on your own can't surely be considered emotional abuse can it?? I'm reading between the lines here that people believe that people that break due to unforeseen events are to be shunned and accused of emotional abuse?

I have to ask Temptress, where in my story do I say that I made my daughter my agony aunt? I took great pains and was constantly aware that I did NOT involve my daughter in my relationship break up. She was not there. She did not witness it. If you read it properly you see that I say on more than one occasion that I did not want to be a burden to my daughter.

Even with no break up and not marital breakdown a parent might get a bit pissed off with a kid that ignored their parents except for when they needed bailing out with money. That is what many, many kids do. It is what my ex husband did to his mum for many, many years. Never visit or call unless they want something. But in most instances the parent can have a moan and say so. That doesn't surely mean emotional abuse that justifies total estrangement. That is what happens time and time again and I for one will be ready to believe that unless it can be proven otherwise.

My sister merely asked her to visit me because she was concerned that I wasn't seeing my daughter and missed her. Doe that make her having to be my agony aunt or maybe just popping into say "hi mum"?

My agony aunts were my sisters, my girlfriends and my counsellor. I am perplexed to see where you read any different? Or do you know something I don't?

Posts in estranged parents' forums are vague. Members recount stories with the fewest possible details, the least possible context. They don't recreate entire scenes, repeat entire conversations, give entire text exchanges; they paraphrase hours of conversation away. The only element they describe in detail is their own grief or rage

So true and glad to see this being acknowledged. My mother is a manipulative narcissisist who delighted in troublemaking and setting her children against each other. Amongst many other things.

We are NC and I'm finally having the best years of my life. According to her it's over "something silly" too.

Me me me that's all it ever is with mums who conspire to upset and take out their life woes on their daughters (it's hardly ever their sons, is it?). Then handwring when they get what they deserve. No care for the upset they've inflicted. Very good at playing the victim. Yes..it's always over "nothing" or "something silly"..just like that.

They forget they're going to grow old.

I've not set eyes on my mum for 3 years but according to the grapevine I "come back when I need something". Like what. - when I work, my DDs work, OH works and is lovely to us all....whilst she spends her time trying by any means to find out what's going on in my life. More lies from her.

I used to dance to her tune, wish she could be like other mums, spend days either upset or enraged by her antics. She is a community stalwart, everyone knows her "she's so lovely your mum"...I can't recall my mum hugging me once, with her "lovely self".

One day I decided to just step off. Best thing I ever did.

I'm so glad of the close relationship I have with DDs...I appreciate it every day.

I take my punishment like a grown up
I cut my own mother out of my life many years ago, not because I wanted to punish her but because I needed to protect myself from her toxic influence.

The problem with seeing this as a punishment is that it encourages you to think that after a certain amount of time has elapsed the punishment will be served and you can pick up where you left off.
What you are not getting is that the other person has a right to terminate the relationship, if you continue to contact them then you are harassing them.

Also the answer to 'but I'm your mother' is
and?

It’s amazing, again, how people manage to be vague and self-serving at such length, editing their own narrative, while also making it absolutely obvious why the decision to cut them off was rational. The missing, missing reason again.

OP, you sound like my STBXH. He trots out the 'I'm so hurt', I haven't seen them so long and it hurts' and 'I am still their father' card so often... And he pretends to take responsibility 'It's all my fault, I fucked up' but seems to believe that because he has said this a few times, our DDs should just forgive him and have contact.

He has no insight into the way his alcoholism and associated behaviour has affected them. He has made no changes to his life and made no effort to address his issues - he just expects everyone to feel sorry for him and rescue him.

I don't think he has a clue about what he's done to our DDs and to me and why I threw him out. But I am so, so glad I did.

You really need to get into counselling so that you can get to the roots of your feelings and take responsibility. Children do not walk away from their parents lightly, especially when they are still young. If you don't acknowledge that, nothing will ever change. And stop using your son as a flying monkey.

Sometimes the child just gets to a point where there is no point any more. The relationship makes them ill and the parent cannot/will not see any fault, will not change and so the only way is to step away. With my mother all relationships are like a game, where she needs to win or always have the uper hand to feel OK and in control. I can't play that game any more.

The gransnet threads are very interesting, they won't admit them doing anything wrong all they will concede is that perhaps they are 'too loving' that they 'care too much'
And going no contact well that's 'just wrong' they can never be any justification for it

@hadroncollider to be fair though if your sister was providing end of life care she would have no idea how her patients were as parents. People don’t just stop being arseholes because they’re old.

We are NC and I'm finally having the best years of my life.

Oh, this, x 1000000.

It took a while, but I am finally 'me'. And I'm actually rather nice

ohfortuna - yes, my mother wrote to me saying 'why are you punishing me, what have I done (after explaining, what she had done )

perhaps they are 'too loving' that they 'care too much' - yes, this was trotted out to me too. In the same email. 'The only thing you can accuse us of is being TOO loving'

My eyes were opened after I (finally) left my abusive ex. Even though he was violent, and the police had to be called he said to everyone afterwards 'I really want to make it work, but she's just so volatile. I'm not sure if I can take any more of her agression. I could try relate; see if that would flush out her unreasonable behaviour'

This is the man that tried removed my son from the carseat so violently he bruised his legs (when we were leaving).

Also, he never paid a penny in maintenance. But told everyone 'I mean, how much more can I give her. Surely £1000 a month is enough for her?'

So, I take pretty much everything with a pinch of salt.

Especially when I spot a narcissist.

And now I feel this image is appropriate

Yes, of course it is all about you, isn’t it ‘Mommy Dearest’ which is why you didn’t just add a concise account of your experiences like all other poster dids but literally hijacked someone else’s thread to make it all about you. Just cut the waffle. So, from quite a young age, when literally old enough to move out, your DD has started going LC and now NC. You make this all about you without the slightest awareness of what she was going through to push her to this. I don’t know YOU but I know your type, it jumps out in your post. But yeah, keep stoically flogging your ‘story’ and like another poster picked up ‘take your punishment’. You really don’t get it, your DD is protecting herself, has the right of autonomy and isn’t an extension of your ego.

Is this a wind-up?
I mean really why call yourself 'dearest mommy', surely that can't be a parapraxis?