Assistance required navigating convoluted family bollocks.

[CommanderDaisy]

My Dad is in his 80's. He was a corporate Madmen type of guy before retirement- very successful but all his focus was on work 7-8pm days, lots of travel etc. He has no hobbies, won't join any groups etc and has no ability to entertain himself. His opinion is always right, and he finds offence very easily. He's bored as hell now, and I feel for him - but he won't take a look at himself to see what he's like and why people respond to him the way they do. He used to drink far too much, and never noticed everyone around him stopped drinking to cope with his giant strops and arguements when pissed. He has now been forced to not drink for medical reasons. ( Thanks be to whatever). Christmas is sober now.

My Mum is sweet and should have left him years ago but wouldn't and didn't. Her family is in another country, my father has no one left other than me, her and my children. I can't let his behaviour adversly affect her. She and I speak regularly and have a pretty good relationship. She's an awesome Nan to my boys.

I am an adopted only child who lives many miles away now. My childhood was fine but I was expected to perform and succeed .I did this in ways I am happy with, but it was not what my father wanted - this is tale for another thread.

My DH is a calm guy- slow to offend ,who has been wonderful coping with my controlling, grumpy ,drunk, bossy father. He is as stubborn as all hell though and once he decides something that is often it. We have been together for over 20 years. His family is very wealthy, very nice, a bit "high-society" but fairly kind and tolerant. He has several siblings.

Last year, my FIL died after a fairly awful battle with Alzheimers and alcohol induced dementia. Christmas was in the city where both sets of parents live, plus half husbands siblings. Our plans are usually breakfast at my parents where we stay ( no room at MIL) and lunch with husbands family. My parents have always come too as I feel I can't leave them alone on Christmas day with no grandchildren as I feel bad for my mother. My MIL intiated them coming along, and it has been this way for close to 15 years .

So FIL has died, it's the first Christmas without him - so quite sad for my DH's family.
One SIL really doesn't like my Dad and had asked ( after my parents were already invited by MIL) for him not to come. Cue much shit behind the scenes but MIL said too late, he's coming. To be honest, the behind the scenes stuff upsets me, as it's hard to hear my parents bad mouthed but I am very aware of how difficult my Dad is- so fair enough-ish. So they come along.

And.....my Dad chooses to take offence on the day that not enough fuss was made of him at MIL's lunch annd has a go at my DH. When my DH said thank you for coming to him, he got some response that was critical of the families hospitality and that he was treated like a guest ( ?), he wasn't treated with enough importance and family members didn't make enough effort. I wasn't there for the conversation but my DH came back white with rage and refused to stay at my parents place for the rest of the trip. It was awkward beyond belief. And left a stink in the air that has lasted almost all year. My DH expects my father to apologise, my father believes he has done nothing wrong. He's even gone as far as sending an email to my MIL telling her DH is causing a rift in the family.

My husband was big enough to visit him in hospital during the year( it was only by chance DH was in town when the hospitalisation occured and the visit was on my suggestion- it was major surgery and I was there to help my Mum), which eased unspoken hostilities but things between them are not good. If I join in and try to mediate, my fathers reaction will be ridiculous, martyred etc and will make my mothers life miserable. My involvement will not help.

We got through this Christmas at ours this year, it was definitely awkward - my father expects to not be treated like a guest, yet expects to be waited on/entertained etc ( FFS). We made it , through my DH regularly having to fix a fence at the arse end of our property etc.

BUT......

Next year it's a city Christmas again. and my DH has refused outright to let my father set foot at his MIL's house for Christmas. And refused to stay at my parents. And refuses to discuss it with my Dad.
My Mum will be mortified, there is no room to stay at MIL's as SIL who hates my Dad dominates all space at the house, and I'll be with the kids at my parents with no DH dealing with shit all week.

What do I do? No contact is not an option.

( and if you made it through this spiel , thank you enormously)

*simple but not easy

That should say

He doesn't want to rent.

Tough.

He's decided where he's staying.

Now you do the same.

I just don’t understand the sorts of families and dynamics where people can flat-out refuse to have their own parents in their home. Sure, if they’re undeniably dangerous or a true threat. But this doesn’t sound as though it falls into that category. Yes, the man is difficult and tries to be controlling and used to get mardy when drunk. Yes the Mum is whatever she is for staying with him (I won’t say enabling because men like the father don’t need enabling - they’d go right ahead without).

But these are the OP’s parents. She is the only child. The DSs are their only grandchildren. Somewhere in amongst all this must be some fondness, affection - maybe even love? If there weren’t, I doubt the DH would have put up with it for so long, and I doubt Christmas arrangements would be the problem. And OP sounds stressed or worried about next year, but someone causing you stress or worry is hardly worth cutting them out of your life, banishing them for Christmas, stopping your children from having a relationship. If it were, hardly anyone would have any family, social or professional relationships!!

Look, it’s not an ideal set up. The man is an arse. Just treat him accordingly and don’t allow him to insult or offend those you care about. It’s hard work, but that’s it. He. Is. Hard. Work. Every time he makes a dig, correct him. Every time he offends, point it out and so on. It won’t change him, but it’ll support the others. Hard work, but worth it for social cohesion.

I’m firmly of the view that each and every family has difficult people in it (and frankly, those people who can so glibly advise people to cut others out are the worst offenders - their way or the high way, I find). In reality, life is lived in the grey area. Everyone muddles through, crapness gets ignored or pulled up on when it’s bad, nobody is quick to take offense, people see the good in each other, and a dose of humour goes a long way too. There’s just no need for all this drama.

Sorry, meant to say that dealing with old people like this requires you to take charge. Don’t seat him at the head of the table, and when he Moana firmly put him in his place - with good cheer. Don’t pander to his every wish - let him grumble from the sides. You be in control and demonstrate where his place is. If you need to be in your own home to do this, so be it. A couple of years like this and he will soon get the point. If he chooses to vote with his feet and stay away - fine. If he is “happy” with his new role - fine. You all go on your merry way. There’s no need for all this drama llama behaviour.

Smitff - "I just don't understand" clearly - maybe go read the stately homes thread. I have major mental health issues as a direct result of a father like this, it DOES do harm. If you don't understand don't comment.

You obviously have never had to deal with someone like this - aren't you lucky.

Graphista - unless there’s something I don’t know, you’ve read the same few words on a screen about what one person has to say about another as I have. I think you and I are equally qualified to comment. That you have had major mental health issues because of your father, doesn’t mean the OP has or will. I’d thank you for not trying to, erm, control me

Experience is what I have, and you're one of the few people on the thread thinking what the father has done "isn't that bad" myself and other pps are appalled and we've read the same as you yes.

I’ve never bought into herd mentality, and I won’t start for this thread. Anyway, this isn’t about you and I. Don’t want to derail.

We normally do alternate Christmas at parents, barring imminent childbirths. This year we were just so tired and skint, we said enough flights and trains, let's stay home with the toddler and four year old and rest. It has been the most relaxing Christmas ever. I've been able to eat some chocolate for the first Christmas in ten years, lounge on my sofa, stay I pyjamas all day, buy the kids a much needed bike as we don't have to lug it across continents. Say next year you are having one quietly at home, end of. It's fab. Go visit when there is less drama just before or just after Xmas. There are no laws that day you have to be there with them.

"His opinion is always right, and he finds offence very easily"

"giant strops and arguements when pissed" hardly just "a bit mardy"

"controlling, grumpy ,drunk, bossy father."

"Dad chooses to take offence on the day that not enough fuss was made of him at MIL's lunch annd has a go at my DH."

"response that was critical of the families hospitality and that he was treated like a guest ( ?), he wasn't treated with enough importance and family members didn't make enough effort." This is a family that have JUST lost their own father, their first Christmas without him, that's hard enough without anything else adding to it.

"sending an email to my MIL telling her DH is causing a rift in the family." That would be an email to a grieving widow slating the widows son!

"my father expects to not be treated like a guest, yet expects to be waited on/entertained etc"

"He's a fucker, we all know he's a fucker"

"My Dad has behaved disgracefully"

"I would call him an emotional abuser, a gaslighter and a narcissicist"

"I really don't expect in-laws to accomodate the old bastard this year"

"I'm actually somewhat scared of him ( DF) and the way he responds to criticism. He can be very vicious"

"narcissistic nightmare of special proportions."

"1000 cuts shit that DF specialises in."

"He's verbally vicious, and has zero self-awareness."

"I know my father is an arse"

All these quotes are op's own descriptions of her father/what happened - hardly minor

Graphista - the points are (1) your experience is of course what it is. It just may not be the OP’s (2) nobody sees the list of things you’ve just done as minor. But neither are they obstructive to maintaining some sort of relationship, in my view. From me, they would get appropriate treatment, mostly in the way I said two posts up. Nearly all the examples you’ve listed need to have an audience to ‘work’. Let the man say what he wants - you just don’t listen or pay any heed/give any headspace. He’s spouting bollocks. If he moans about not being paid attention to - let him. If he tries to cause offence deliberately - pull him up and don’t allow him. And so on. As I said before, there is certainly more to this relationship than what is written on this thread.

I’ve had my fair share of family members who on MN, at the merest whiff of their approach, would be called “toxic” or “enablers”. They hurt you to the extent you allow them to. I wouldn’t for one second suggest this approach with someone with undeniable and proven abusive traits. But if this is what the old man has, OP would be posting about that rather than Christmas dinner arrangements for next year. She wouldn’t even be contemplating Christmas next year.

Except parents like this train their children to put up with such treatment. And what do you think defines abuse?

Graphista - every parent like this trains every child to put up with this treatment? Even if that were the case (which I don’t believe it is), one of my points is that OP isn’t a child any more. Of course she is their child, but she is an adult who can, and should, take control of her life.

Your last question: I don’t think this OP’s thread is the place to have the discussion you want to have with me on this. Per above, I don’t want to derail this thread. Per above, my belief is that life is mostly lived in the grey areas, and my reckoning is that that is where the OP finds herself. Your line of questioning doesn’t help her with her quandary, in my opinion. If you disagree, I’m sure you won’t feel held back from saying so by anything I post.

Smitff you seem to be saying that no one would even consider spending next Christmas with a family member who was 'undeniably abusive'. There are plenty of threads demonstrating that people do. Not every single one of them, but certainly some. You can think the dad here is not that bad if you want to, but I don't think logically the above equation stands up.

On the same lines, of course adults can and should take control of their own lives. Again, though, there are ample threads showing that people find this very difficult. People don't just walk away from abusive parents easily, no matter how old they are, and even if they should.

Buttery - well said

Smitff I just cannot comprehend why you would even comment on this thread when you clearly have no understanding or compassion for the issues involved.

Graphista - your experience is not everybody’s. What you think is going on is not what everyone else thinks is going on (because, eg, I don’t). I could exclaim about your arrogance at presuming such a thing, but I have enough compassion and understanding to not do that because you’ve already said you’ve suffered at the hands of somebody who evidently resembles OP’s DF. Not everyone with the list of traits you’ve picked out is like your DF. Not everyone is like you. Why should I withhold from pointing out an alternative view? Perhaps the OP isn’t looking for “support” in the guise of people telling her she’s being abused and the best thing she can do is to cut the man out of her life? In fact, didn’t she say this? Do you really think you know better than she about her own situation, to the point of foisting your own views on her and questioning the right of anyone with a different view to post on this thread?

Buttery - This OP has taken onto herself responsibility for intransigent behaviour on the part of both her DF and her DH. Like many women, she’s torturing herself to try to do right by these two significant men in her life, at her own cost. However, she doesn’t come across to me as being cowed into submission by abusive men, struggling to find the strength to walk away. She comes across as knowing what she does and doesn’t want, but doesnt know how to get there. She doesn’t come across as needing to be condescended to, to having strangers tell her what’s actually going on in her life from the tidbits she’s posted on this thread. That’s why I’ve written what I’ve written. She is of course very welcome to correct me if I’m wrong.

Finally - because I really don’t want to derail this thread for OP - I have hard-won understanding of the issues on this thread Graphista. Your saying I have neither understanding or compassion is belittling and dismissive of four years of my life that I wouldn’t wish in anyone. I dealt with it differently from you, that’s all. I request that you accord me the compassion you suggest I’m missing and that only you and people who agree with you seem to have.

4 years? Glad you only had 4 years of it and have managed to come away.

Op been dealing with this all her life.

Last time, I don’t want to engage any further, especially not in such a distasteful display of abuse top trumps. Four years of intense therapy after a suicide attempt. Got that? I’m disappointed in myself for rising to your bait, but it’s clearly still quite fresh for me, despite the years that have passed. I’ve learned something, at least.

Not all victims are the same. Just like all abusers aren’t the same. If I don’t conform to your idea of how a victim should conduct herself, that’s your loss.

Sorry OP. I really, really didn’t want to derail. But I meant everything I posted, should it be of use to you.

Agree pointless engaging because you DON'T know me DON'T know what I've been through, am still going through

@Graphista and @Smitff you both have different experiences... both of you have different views on it.

Neither of you are wrong .

Perhaps both of you need to think about putting the keyboard down for a few minutes
to stop any further upset.

Nomud I get you're trying to be helpful but I disagree

It doesnt matter if you disagree @Graphista ... your opinion is just that , an opinion, not fact , and no more valid than @Smitff .

I have worked for years professionally with women who have experienced emotional abuse ... what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the next. Its about OP finding a solution that meets her needs and improves her quality of life ... your suggestions might not do that , and equally @Smitff might not do that .

Offering suggestions to OP so that she can think & choose and have her options widened is helpful ... arguing the toss about who is right/wrong helps no one.

It doesn't matter if I disagree? Righto I just won't express an opinion then.

Graphista - Mumsnet is a chat forum. It’s for discussions. It’s not a gladiator’s ring, where there’s a winner and a loser, someone who’s right and someone who’s wrong. There’s space for everyone. The internet is limitless