Assistance required navigating convoluted family bollocks.

[CommanderDaisy]

My Dad is in his 80's. He was a corporate Madmen type of guy before retirement- very successful but all his focus was on work 7-8pm days, lots of travel etc. He has no hobbies, won't join any groups etc and has no ability to entertain himself. His opinion is always right, and he finds offence very easily. He's bored as hell now, and I feel for him - but he won't take a look at himself to see what he's like and why people respond to him the way they do. He used to drink far too much, and never noticed everyone around him stopped drinking to cope with his giant strops and arguements when pissed. He has now been forced to not drink for medical reasons. ( Thanks be to whatever). Christmas is sober now.

My Mum is sweet and should have left him years ago but wouldn't and didn't. Her family is in another country, my father has no one left other than me, her and my children. I can't let his behaviour adversly affect her. She and I speak regularly and have a pretty good relationship. She's an awesome Nan to my boys.

I am an adopted only child who lives many miles away now. My childhood was fine but I was expected to perform and succeed .I did this in ways I am happy with, but it was not what my father wanted - this is tale for another thread.

My DH is a calm guy- slow to offend ,who has been wonderful coping with my controlling, grumpy ,drunk, bossy father. He is as stubborn as all hell though and once he decides something that is often it. We have been together for over 20 years. His family is very wealthy, very nice, a bit "high-society" but fairly kind and tolerant. He has several siblings.

Last year, my FIL died after a fairly awful battle with Alzheimers and alcohol induced dementia. Christmas was in the city where both sets of parents live, plus half husbands siblings. Our plans are usually breakfast at my parents where we stay ( no room at MIL) and lunch with husbands family. My parents have always come too as I feel I can't leave them alone on Christmas day with no grandchildren as I feel bad for my mother. My MIL intiated them coming along, and it has been this way for close to 15 years .

So FIL has died, it's the first Christmas without him - so quite sad for my DH's family.
One SIL really doesn't like my Dad and had asked ( after my parents were already invited by MIL) for him not to come. Cue much shit behind the scenes but MIL said too late, he's coming. To be honest, the behind the scenes stuff upsets me, as it's hard to hear my parents bad mouthed but I am very aware of how difficult my Dad is- so fair enough-ish. So they come along.

And.....my Dad chooses to take offence on the day that not enough fuss was made of him at MIL's lunch annd has a go at my DH. When my DH said thank you for coming to him, he got some response that was critical of the families hospitality and that he was treated like a guest ( ?), he wasn't treated with enough importance and family members didn't make enough effort. I wasn't there for the conversation but my DH came back white with rage and refused to stay at my parents place for the rest of the trip. It was awkward beyond belief. And left a stink in the air that has lasted almost all year. My DH expects my father to apologise, my father believes he has done nothing wrong. He's even gone as far as sending an email to my MIL telling her DH is causing a rift in the family.

My husband was big enough to visit him in hospital during the year( it was only by chance DH was in town when the hospitalisation occured and the visit was on my suggestion- it was major surgery and I was there to help my Mum), which eased unspoken hostilities but things between them are not good. If I join in and try to mediate, my fathers reaction will be ridiculous, martyred etc and will make my mothers life miserable. My involvement will not help.

We got through this Christmas at ours this year, it was definitely awkward - my father expects to not be treated like a guest, yet expects to be waited on/entertained etc ( FFS). We made it , through my DH regularly having to fix a fence at the arse end of our property etc.

BUT......

Next year it's a city Christmas again. and my DH has refused outright to let my father set foot at his MIL's house for Christmas. And refused to stay at my parents. And refuses to discuss it with my Dad.
My Mum will be mortified, there is no room to stay at MIL's as SIL who hates my Dad dominates all space at the house, and I'll be with the kids at my parents with no DH dealing with shit all week.

What do I do? No contact is not an option.

( and if you made it through this spiel , thank you enormously)

You put that you want strategies for dealing with telling your dad, not the brutal truth. Can I urge you to reconsider.
Dad, you're not invited to mils this year because of the way you behaved last year. I really don't blame them, you said x and y and z which was really rude.
Then say what you want to happen eg
I will be going over there for lunch about x o'clock, I know you and mum like to eat xxx so I thought I'd help you both with this before I leave.

Stick to the facts, he said something, his hosts found it rude and don't want him back, move on to the plans for him and mum.

Thank you to those who replied.
I think those who suggested some of the milder options were most helpful, as a full "stand up for what is right" confrontation is really not an option in the circumstances. Considering my kids don't see him for what he is yet, taking down Grandad as a bully might not translate well as a life lesson. In principle, I see where these posters are coming from, it really won't work here, as satisfying for 30 seconds as it might be.

I won't be inflicting him on the in-laws, even though my MIL is such a lady ,she has recently had lunch with them both prior to Christmas - goddamn father probably started trying to arrange next year then I imagine.

My DH is a saint in this regard, not in all matters, but this one yes.

I think the lack of invite for lunch is able to be navigated ( unless my MIL overrules DH which I don't want her to do), it's where to stay etc that will cause death by a thousand cuts. We're stuck as DH won't consider renting, and kind of justifiably sort of wants to make a point by him not staying at theirs, even though he knows there is not room for all of us at his mothers, just for him.

I will have a look at the various info people have included too, thank you! I'm also glad to know I'm not the only onne who thinks this man is a narcissistic nightmare of special proportions.

Your DH does not want to stay for the 4 nights with your DF after his atrocious behaviour to him and his mother at a very difficult time.

You need to respect and accept this. For once YOU need to put his needs above YOURS - which is to pacify, comply and enable your DF's dreadful behaviour.

Your concern for your DM is misguided. She behaved very badly in all of this by denying what happened. She will survive the 4 days with him - as she does the other 361 days of the year.

Check into a hotel - go for less time if you cant afford 4 nights. Dont tell them what you are doing until you need to - and make it clear it is not up for negotiation.

Prioritise your DH, your marriage, your children, your family - do the right thing for once - not the thing that makes life more comfortable for YOU at the expense of innocent others.

I feel that the SIL saw what was coming - she has long experience of his vile behaviour and wanted to make a stand at this very sensitive time to protect her vulnerable mother - shame everyone was too polite to take her request on board.

SIL absolutely saw what was coming, and I have no real negative feelings towards her for this, other than a familiar sinking feeling when I found out this had been a "hot" topic for a while without me being aware of it.

DH will NOT rent accomodation of any description- I have suggested it but he has flatly refused - and when he gets like this he's an immovable object. He's actually not unhappy with his plan to stay at MIL on the couch. Past that we haven't got to figuring out how to divvy up the day. Unless we just stay put a long way away, which would also be fine for him as he can't stand spending time in the city or family oligations ( one of his sisters drives him bonkers - this sister also thinks my Dad is great).

So I am not at all suggesting he stay - I wouldn't ask that of him, I wish he'd be a bit more flexible with renting somewhere but he won't - he thinks his plan is fine. Kids and me in one location, him in another.

My Mum was pathetic annd wrong in denying this took place, but she has to live there I suppose, and deal with the death by 1000 cuts shit that DF specialises in. I shouldn't excuse her, but her way of dealing with him has been to take on an enormous amount of volunteer work so she isn't exposed to him all the time.

SIL absolutely saw what was coming, and I have no real negative feelings towards her for this, other than a familiar sinking feeling when I found out this had been a "hot" topic for a while without me being aware of it.

Of course you were aware of it. Your whole life is attuned to accommodating his bad behaviour at the expense of others.

Your DCs being with their DF at Christmas is the single most important priority. You need to make this happen - whether that means staying home or going off to somewhere else. Christmas is about DCs, not accommodating the volatile moods of your DF or the victim emtions of your DM.

You could confront it head on with your dad. You might be surprised if you do that. Sometimes striking a stubborn person head on makes them back down a bit. But it sounds like you don't want the risk. Fair enough.

Why don't you, when it's nearer the time just say a white lie that mil (or another family member) has had a hard year/has a cold or something and that as such they can't accommodate any extra guests and your dh has offered to stay their to help out with lunch/the garden/childcare etc. It may not be the best couple of days for you but hopefully the boat wouldn't be rocked too much. The. Just try and divide your day up so you get a bit of time with both family. 'Sorry I'm much rather be with you parents, but I do need to show my face as we only come every other year and she's had such a tough year/month'. Bung a movie on for them. Your mother can see you another day or come and visit you if she needs to see you more.

Your dad is a huge problem and your mum enables him.

Why are you so concerned about your mother? She made and is still makinf choices, some to your detriment, and one of the consequences is that she may not get to see you and the DC some - or indeed any! - Christmases.

Your H sounds reasonable: suggest doing whatever he suggests. Or stay home with DH and the DC and see the extended families at other times.

Would be good to get some help in managing your difficult family - including your mother who is part of the problem - stately homes threads on here are good.

The fact that you’re even considering staying at your parents without DH shows your current priorities are wrong.

Given your father’s awful behaviour over several Christmases SIL and DH are not being at all U not to want your DF in their mother’s home again!

Do you realise how strange it is the way you prioritise your dad over absolutely everyone else?

I don’t agree with the posters suggesting trying to make your DF or DM change. He’s 80. They’ve been married for decades. It’s just not realistic, or even desirable in the long run. Your DM has made her choices, just like he has; let them deal with the consequences.

By the same token, your DH has made his choices. He’s a decent fellow for trying with your DF all these years. If he’s had enough - fine. If he won’t stay at your parents’ - fine. If he won’t rent - fine. If there’s no room for all of you at MIL’s - fine. If he wants to stay there on the couch for a couple of nights without his DC - fine. If he wants to take his DC there (sleep in the floor?) without you and you stay with your parents - fine by him, up to you to decide. I really don’t think it’s a big deal to be separated from the kids for a couple of nights over Christmas. Your parents are your family just as your children are, your children will know that DF/DM have nobody but you, whereas they have DH and his entire family. In my eyes, it’s a pretty decent thing to model. Then again, I don’t really buy into the whole “Christmas is just magical for children!” spiel either.

I think you’ll figure it out, year by year, muddling through. I wouldn’t fret. It’s be nice for everyone to get along, but sometimes it’s just not possible. 15 years is a pretty good run. You’ll have your MIL to thank for that.

It's incredible how everyone has been roped into accommodating and excusing one man's selfish behaviour. The lengths you will go to avoid letting your dad know that he's upset people are extraordinary. All the rest of your family take second place to that.

You said earlier it wouldn't do your kids any favours to see Grandad taken down as a bully. I might quibble with that, but putting it aside for now - what also does them no favours is seeing everyone else have to put aside their own feelings to tiptoe around Grandad.

The thing that strikes me is that your DH plans to stay at his mother’s when he knows there is no room for you and DC. This is quite bizarre.

I am really sorry, I have lots of experience of an abusive parent and an enabling one, and I simply would not do Christmas with them any more. Travel to see your parents some other time of the year.

Then if your DH is happy to be in one location, you and DC in another, then simply stay at home.

Regardless of the ins and outs of what happened with your DH and your dad, you are stuck in the middle trying to sort it out. Just stop doing that. Breathe deeply and imagine the world without worrying about this. Then focus on something else.

I mean, it is 27 December and you are tying yourself in knots about what to do next year. The answer is to do nothing. You cannot fix this situation because you did not create it.

I don’t agree with the posters suggesting trying to make your DF or DM change

I don't think it's realistic he'll change either, but that doesn't mean OP has to sit there dancing attention either.

Wait, your DH is happy for you and your kids to spend 4 days at your parents without him over Christmas? Does he not see that that would be awful for the children, to be apart from him for so long?

I think he needs to reconsider that. Maybe go for less time. If everyone is happy for your nuclear family, minus DH, to stay at your DPs for a day or two around Christmas, fine. But he needs to fork out for Christmas night (or morning?) so that you are all together. For the DC.

another20 “Your vile alcoholic bully DF insulted and abused your bereaved DH's family and grieving MIL on the most painful day of the year after the death of her husband/their father.”

I agree with this!!

Sorry OP but your loyalty lies with your dh on this.

Your father is abusive and your mum chooses to stay with him. That’s their choice. Now you need to make the right choice for YOUR family.

Stay in a b &b (start saving now) and enjoy Xmas with your DH, dropping in to see your parents on your terms. You CANNOT expect your dh to stay with them ever again!

Do you realise how strange it is the way you prioritise your dad over absolutely everyone else?

Again, I agree so much with this.

I agree with the pp who said he's to old to 'fix'

I think I'd go with the plausible lie. 'Oh dear lovely parents, MIL has a health issue and won't be hosting Christmas next time. We're going to do our own thing for one year, keep things low-key'

What are the chances you'd be found out? Make an effort to see your Mum at another date.

Chances are your mother will absolutely guess what's happening. You just need to give everyone an 'out'

I relate so much to this. re a father like your father, a FIL like your father. also a husband like my father but perhaps that's too close for comfort

and an enabling mother who simply refuses point blank to acknowledge what an old goat my father is. She's now completely in his care, as she is very old and very frail.

Ah it's all very well to trot out the therapised '"her choice!" but actually it wasn't much of a choice back in the day. And now she's old, she's set in it like concrete, there is no way she's going to be able to get out. Your mother and my mother here.

A year. A great deal can happen in a year, it's insane to be thinking about this now, let alone worrying about it. ime with my parents, some serious health shit started taking off, which changed everything. YOu have absolutely no idea what things are going to look like in a year's time - and you will have wasted a whole year worrying for nothing.

Actually, one thing that stands out to me is how your DH was 'white with rage'. That's a huge response. Perhaps he, and you, haven't quite accepted what an old goat your father is and you can get surprised. I have to say, nothing about my dad surprises me now.

I wonder if you're taking him too seriously. He is outrageously rude and desperately inappropriate - he'll probably get worse as he gets older, as hard as that is to imagine. Your husband is taking an enormous stand, essentially locking horns with your dad. Such a waste of time. He's not worth getting offended over.

I agree with previous posters who have said explain to your dad that they won't be going to MILs again because he upset everyone last time making such a fuss-that's what happens when you aren't very nice to people, they don't invite you back.
Stop worrying about it all - wait until Sept at the earliest to start planning.
Your DH and MIL sound lovely!

The" back in the day " comment by springydaff is very apt re both parents - both are very much a result of a generation that was very different to now. It still doesn't excuse behaviour, but I am of the opinion that it should always be considered as a factor. What is viewed now as unacceptable, or enabling behaviour , wasn't therapied out in the culture my parents grew up and lived in.

I realise I should stop the worry but it's a topic that has already been raised, so I'm trying to get input to line some ducks up down.
I am going to have to address it sooner rather than later, so there's not this year long bloody build up. I'm hoping greatly MIL hasn't already invited them or politely agreed when he assumed everything will be the same when they all had lunch together last week

I feel I should add, I do support my DH over my father regularly - facilitate him disapearing when they visit, visit them without him, , go on holidays with kids and grandparents without him, and completely get his reasons for not wanting to stay at my parents place . And would never expect him to.

Also its DH who refuses to spend money renting somewhere , I'd do it. This is a direct quote from him " I'm not wasting money because your father's a cunt, when I can stay at Mum's".
Unfortunately , as it happens there is no room for the rest of us. Which will make it all perfectly understandable to me but weird. Our kids are teenagers, so past the Santa etc stage. They still adore Grandad, and haven't quite got the extent of his entitled narcissim.

IcedCocoa - that's kind of how I feel. I didn't create this. I can't therefore fix it.

another20 - see I didn't know there was this intense undecurrent of dislike from SIL. So I was a bit whilst wondering how the fuck I was supposed to rescind MIL's invitation which was what I got asked to do by SIL, indirectly through my DH without my MIL being aware of it. Once she heard it this was going on it was my MIL who insisted on the invitation . I genuinely didn't know this had been discussed at such length behind my back . My father is an old school salesman type who can be, and had been always charming to my in-laws. DH knew what he was like, but half his family had no idea and actually like him. He is very smooth when he needs to be, this was a big lapse only in front of my DH and my mother.

springdaff - in general you are spot on. Worse as he gets older , major health issues popping up etc. I wonder about the waste of energy and time even bothering to tackle him. It'd be water off a concrete ducks back. He's verbally vicious, and has zero self-awareness. And yes, Mum is set in concrete and now stuck .

Thank you all.

The" back in the day " comment by springydaff is very apt re both parents - both are very much a result of a generation that was very different to now. It still doesn't excuse behaviour, but I am of the opinion that it should always be considered as a factor. What is viewed now as unacceptable, or enabling behaviour , wasn't therapied out in the culture my parents grew up and lived in.

You are being an apologist here and still in denial.

This is the sort of horse shit spouted by those close to Savile, Wienstein etc who did nothing ie their 'old school' behaviour is acceptable because they are old.

No it is only acceptable and is enabled by people like you.

Your husband is right. Your DF is a cunt, always was a cunt.

Your dad sounds a lot like mine. No point trying to explain his behaviour is unacceptable to him, he won't listen and you'll get a lot of abuse your way in return. I mean, you can try if you like, but I doubt it'll change anything.

Posters saying he should hear the truth for once are missing the fact that people like this won't listen to the truth. They'll explain what you say away as everyone else's problem.

Your mum though is making the choice to prioritise him and his feelings over herself and everyone else (including you). That is her decision, and she could change it if she wanted to. But she must likely won't.

So I wholeheartedly recommend that you fork out for a couple of counselling sessions to work out your response to all of this. It will help you get your head round the situation and who you need to prioritise.

Like someone else said, you're tying yourself in knots trying to keep everyone happy, and I just don't think that is possible in this situation. What do you actually want to happen next Christmas? Who do you, and your DH, and your teenage kids want to spend the day with?

Ouch, my parents are difficult, as I said. But I would be massively struggling with any husband of mine using that language, and begrudging the money to find a suitable rental accommodation where we (me, him and DC) could stay, if it would make life easier for all concerned.

If he wants to stay with his mum, fine, but why can’t you and DC get a hotel or stay at home? I say hotel, because DC would find that a treat, and you would get a rest. But a rental property for a few days would give you your own space.

That all said, I would just opt out and say I am not doing it any more, but I understand the reasons you are not saying that.

Agree re counselling, that is an excellent suggestion.