Assistance required navigating convoluted family bollocks.

[CommanderDaisy]

My Dad is in his 80's. He was a corporate Madmen type of guy before retirement- very successful but all his focus was on work 7-8pm days, lots of travel etc. He has no hobbies, won't join any groups etc and has no ability to entertain himself. His opinion is always right, and he finds offence very easily. He's bored as hell now, and I feel for him - but he won't take a look at himself to see what he's like and why people respond to him the way they do. He used to drink far too much, and never noticed everyone around him stopped drinking to cope with his giant strops and arguements when pissed. He has now been forced to not drink for medical reasons. ( Thanks be to whatever). Christmas is sober now.

My Mum is sweet and should have left him years ago but wouldn't and didn't. Her family is in another country, my father has no one left other than me, her and my children. I can't let his behaviour adversly affect her. She and I speak regularly and have a pretty good relationship. She's an awesome Nan to my boys.

I am an adopted only child who lives many miles away now. My childhood was fine but I was expected to perform and succeed .I did this in ways I am happy with, but it was not what my father wanted - this is tale for another thread.

My DH is a calm guy- slow to offend ,who has been wonderful coping with my controlling, grumpy ,drunk, bossy father. He is as stubborn as all hell though and once he decides something that is often it. We have been together for over 20 years. His family is very wealthy, very nice, a bit "high-society" but fairly kind and tolerant. He has several siblings.

Last year, my FIL died after a fairly awful battle with Alzheimers and alcohol induced dementia. Christmas was in the city where both sets of parents live, plus half husbands siblings. Our plans are usually breakfast at my parents where we stay ( no room at MIL) and lunch with husbands family. My parents have always come too as I feel I can't leave them alone on Christmas day with no grandchildren as I feel bad for my mother. My MIL intiated them coming along, and it has been this way for close to 15 years .

So FIL has died, it's the first Christmas without him - so quite sad for my DH's family.
One SIL really doesn't like my Dad and had asked ( after my parents were already invited by MIL) for him not to come. Cue much shit behind the scenes but MIL said too late, he's coming. To be honest, the behind the scenes stuff upsets me, as it's hard to hear my parents bad mouthed but I am very aware of how difficult my Dad is- so fair enough-ish. So they come along.

And.....my Dad chooses to take offence on the day that not enough fuss was made of him at MIL's lunch annd has a go at my DH. When my DH said thank you for coming to him, he got some response that was critical of the families hospitality and that he was treated like a guest ( ?), he wasn't treated with enough importance and family members didn't make enough effort. I wasn't there for the conversation but my DH came back white with rage and refused to stay at my parents place for the rest of the trip. It was awkward beyond belief. And left a stink in the air that has lasted almost all year. My DH expects my father to apologise, my father believes he has done nothing wrong. He's even gone as far as sending an email to my MIL telling her DH is causing a rift in the family.

My husband was big enough to visit him in hospital during the year( it was only by chance DH was in town when the hospitalisation occured and the visit was on my suggestion- it was major surgery and I was there to help my Mum), which eased unspoken hostilities but things between them are not good. If I join in and try to mediate, my fathers reaction will be ridiculous, martyred etc and will make my mothers life miserable. My involvement will not help.

We got through this Christmas at ours this year, it was definitely awkward - my father expects to not be treated like a guest, yet expects to be waited on/entertained etc ( FFS). We made it , through my DH regularly having to fix a fence at the arse end of our property etc.

BUT......

Next year it's a city Christmas again. and my DH has refused outright to let my father set foot at his MIL's house for Christmas. And refused to stay at my parents. And refuses to discuss it with my Dad.
My Mum will be mortified, there is no room to stay at MIL's as SIL who hates my Dad dominates all space at the house, and I'll be with the kids at my parents with no DH dealing with shit all week.

What do I do? No contact is not an option.

( and if you made it through this spiel , thank you enormously)

Why haven’t you been honest with your now teen DC about their GF’s “flaws”?

Would your H be content to SAH next year?

He doesn’t get to decide whether you rent somewhere to stay.

Have to say, I don't agree with pp's who think that your dh is a prince amoung men.

I agree that he shouldn't have to put up with your df, but to arrange to stay with MIL without any regard for you or his own children?

Not impressed. Also, he doesn't have the right to veto the spending of money on a rental property. It's your money too, and you have an equal say.

If I were you, I'd start putting money aside for that very purpose.

Bit of a cross post there with Dozer.

I think that the DH is actually retaliating and punishing the OP for her enabling over many many years.

Also if OP think's the teen DS's don't know whats going on she is soooooooooo deluded - surely they can hear/read their own DF? And why not be honest with them?

Time for brutal truths and for the first time to do the right thing, side with the GOOD people in life and show your DSs a good life lesson.

Of course your DF will not listen to you and will rage - that is how he has kept you all in control and on a short leash all of your lives.

Call his bluff, front up his bluster, tell him what is happening and why calmly by email and do not discuss if further - do not step into his rage - just carry on with your actions.

Go low or no contact and free yourself from this monster and stop inflicting him on all the good people in your life.

I wish you good luck - this has been really triggering for me as I have lived this life until recently. Take care but you must see your part in it for it to stop corroding your lives and those of who you love.

Regardless of whether your dh stays with you or not, I think I'd still sort out separate accommodation for yourselves (you and your dc). Then agree which 2 hour slot (or whatever) of the day you spend with your mum and then decamp to your MIL's. Your dh's stance is just muddying the waters with regard to deciding what you have to do. Stop staying there and have a discussion with MIL to let her know that you'll be splitting the day from next year on with your two extended families staying apart.

I would suggest that this year you get yourself some counselling.

And I was kind of with your H until you said he refuses to rent somewhere so you can be together as a family at Christmas. Sorry but even if your DC are teenagers what kind of message is that giving them?
A lot would be wondering if you and H were about to get divorced. I suggest you get him to at the least explain to your children why he is choosing not to spend Christmas with you.

And at the very least there needs to be a lot more talk about things in your family (and teens are plenty old enough to discuss this kind of thing).
Your mother has made her choice and needs to deal with the consequences.

No his age is NOT an acceptable excuse. My dad is an arse too - not much younger, others of that generation do NOT see it as acceptable behaviour and do challenge him on it.

Ostracisation is actually exactly what happened/happens with people like this. It's why they don't have any friends and most relatives won't have anything to do with them. My dad is excluded from all family events, claims he doesn't know "what I've done wrong" when he knows exactly what he's done. It's self pitying, narcissistic crap!

Maybe your dh is hitting back but frankly who can blame him? I also agree you're in denial about your teens, they're not stupid but may well be playing along in order not to upset you or their grandmother. Have you actually spoken to them? Unhealthy not to I think. You have no idea the effect this is all having on them - I wonder if they've said something to dh you don't know about.

Thank you all again.

I think my kids are sort of aware that Grandad is awkward - DS14 certainly gets it and has developed his own way of dealing with Pa, he focuses him on common interests like WW2 and aircraft, DS11 did pick up on the energy between Pa and DH this visit - wanted to know why Pa was always in a hurry to leave. When he put his to DM, she replied it was due to his recent extensive surgery ( bowel related) and he needed to rest. Pretty sure the real reason is because he feels guilty but will not admit it.
I have told them when he was still drinking that DF had a prioblem with alcohol and it could make you unpleasant ( we don't drink very often), but haven't gone into the full breakdown of the current situation . DH and I believe they are entitled to make their own decisions re their Grandad. If they love him, we don't want to poison the well.
There was a large fight several years ago when DF weighed in on our parenting, and I think my mother actually booted him in the arse then too, she just won't with this. DS14 chooses not to visit as frequently as his brother, and we don't insist. DS11 wants to go all the time.

DH can be challenging at times, and has justifiably drawn a line in the sand here, but it does leave me flailing about somewhat when he does things like refusing to rent a place - which is the ideal solution. If we do rent somewhere he'll still wouldn't stay there, which is stupid.
I can deal with my father in the unhealthy manner I do, by just not answering pointed questions and other "Oh look, there's a bird over there" tactics . Since the three of us can cope it seems daft to rent somewhere if DH holds his position( which he will - past experiences) and refuses to stay at rented accomodation on point of principle, and trots off to his mother.

We are already pretty low contact with them both, maye 6/7 visits a year plus Christmas on top. Distance is a wonderful thing, though fucking emails ( 3-4 a day) from DF get a little much. DS14 is a technophobe regarding phones and emails and social media ( won't have a bar of it ) so DF can't bother him overly, and DS11 has no email account or social media either ( -because-he'd-send-everyone-pictures-of his-willy-). DH doesn't respond so they've dried up for him, but I get a bunch each day, and only respond every other day deliberately.
For some reason DF hasn't figured out that our landline exists and that one can call people. He's constantly demanding contact, but makes no effort to use the methods the DS's want. Bonus, except for the nagging I receive - which I respond to by repeating ad nauseum that DF is perfectly able to call them should he wish. I

I know my father is an arse, I know my mother enables him, ideally Christmas would be spent with no family other than us, but .......DH jumps to MIL family expectations , so we're off to the city this year like it or not.

And counselling? Done that. Adoption issues, control, fear , expectations all laid out neatly, DH has unhealthy relationship with MIL (improving) , father is toxic - cognitively all aware of that. Does not help on the ground at the coal face. May work for some, not for me.

I've got confused now, from my original post. I think I'll talk to MIL when she comes to stay ( as she may have invited DF already) and talk about how this can be managed. I do see DH over there and us at Df's - with me coping with the elephant in the room.
I'm starting to think that this is DH's to deal with, especially if MIL has already extended the invite, and he is limiting our options with his no renting stance.

Is the problem not between you and your DH? you seem to spend holidays and now Christmas apart, he would prefer to be apart from you and his children at Christmas?

So i think if you told everyone you are staying at home this Christmas, people would accept it and get over it.

Yes, the crux of the matter is in the last line of your most recent post, and I agree with EssexMummy

It (counselling) will not help at the coal face until you change the dynamic, and focus on what works for you. You have laid out all the problems. I am guessing your fear of upsetting the (dysfunctional) apple cart is why the problems have not progressed to solutions.

The world will not stop turning if you let them all get on with their toxicity without you.

If I were you I would rent somewhere for you and the dc. Your H may have “a no renting stance”, but you don’t have to.

If you rent, you don’t have to deal with “the elephant in the room”, you and your dc have a lovely Xmas, visiting both sides of the family for short periods then retiring to your own space.

If your H insists on staying with his mum, then that’s his issue. You can never satisfy your parents and your H with this issue. So stop trying and instead do what’s best for you.

6/7 visits a year and numerous emails daily is NOT low contact.

I don’t think you’ve done your DSs any favours by lying by omission about your parents (both of them are a problem, not just your father). There is still time to rectify that.

Why not SAH next Christmas with no visitors? Best solution by far. Would DH do that?

Well we can all be entrenched in our position. Your dh is also being a dick to insist on staying with mummy. Rent somewhere, even if he doesn't stay, you an use that as the excuse for not staying with your parents while dh at his mum's. But I would not be happy with dh behaviours here either. He'd choose to stay at his mum's over staying with his own kids? Odd

6/7 visits, 3-4 emails a day that you respond to very other day is smotheringly high contact.

Your DF seems to want to make sure he is always in the forefront of your mind.

Could you wean yourself off being gripped so tightly to him? Maybe send all his emails to a special folder, don't look at them daily, read once at the weekend and send only a brief reply?

What on earth does he say in all those emails?

DF sends memes. Short videos. Educational studies. Onne line comments. Airflight discount specials. Piles of shite really.
DH is not usual. Odd is apt, but it's liveable, and as I would also consider myself odd, a good match.

I think blaming DH's dislike of most social interraction and his difficulty dealing with life in the city is starting to look like a most excellent reason to saty home!...............except my parents will come visit. ( Thumping head on table repeatedly)

'n' key sticks. typos.

Then you need a hotel or rental so you can come and go at your parents’ and in-laws.

And the sticking point then is why you cannot simply book this, pay a deposit, and save however much you need for that over the next eleven months.

Or you quite simply say you are having a quiet Christmas at home, no guests, and catch up at some other point.

You are going to have to upset someone’s position, to resolve this situation. And if you aren’t prepared to do that, no amount of counselling or discussion on here will resolve it. No-one else involved looks like they are caring about how you feel, or what you want to do. Why are you not either? You cannot spend your life trying to keep others happy, and then wonder why you are not happy yourself, I don’t think that works (speaking from experience).

Try doing what you want and see what happens?

They don't sound like emails that need a reply. Would he get arsy if you stopped replying, or replied only once a week?

I think blaming DH's dislike of most social interraction and his difficulty dealing with life in the city is starting to look like a most excellent reason to saty home!...............except my parents will come visit.

Why are you yet again pandering to your hideous father by creating more secrets and lies and blaming it on your DH? Deal with it yourself. Tell the brutal truth and just weather the storm. Why create more hassle for your long suffering DH by blaming it on him - that is just fuelling the situation - cue more derogatory shit from your DF to your DH.

...except my parents will come to visit -- no they wont if your say NO!

They don't sound like emails that need a reply. Would he get arsy if you stopped replying, or replied only once a week?

Of course he would - these type of controlling NPD bullies always do.

They control everyone 24/7 with their volatility and the threat of an eruption.

Always do what you want and just be ready to weather his bluster - let it wash over you and distance yourself.

I totally agree with another20

You can’t change other people but only you can change your reaction to them. You’re after any excuse not to face up to the fact that YOU have an uncomfortable decision to make. You’d rather try to opt out and blame others.

This is something YOU need to face up to and deal with.

except my parents will come visit. ( Thumping head on table repeatedly)

But but but, all you have to do is refuse to have them for Christmas. Say no.

Why is this so hard for you? Why would you rather bang your head on the table, lie and slander your husband, and repeatedly have a shit Christmas to avoid telling an offensive git that he's an offensive git and that's why you won't be spending Christmas with him?

You are deep in the FOG. What do you get out of his hold on you?

I suspect DH is refusing the rental idea because he knows you want to lie to your parents. You don't want to call out your father on how appallingly he treated your husband's family. DH is pushing you to a crossroads where you have to choose. No more hiding, no more lying, no more pretending.

If he were posting his side of the story, he would be told he has a DW problem not a FIL problem. People would be suggesting LTB.

Him pushing you to tell your father he is not welcome (and why) might be him being at the last straw point with you. Your prioritisation of your bully boy father over him and his family in their time of grief must have him questioning your relationship.

This might be a test, whether conscious or subconscious.

Have you asked your DH for help standing up to your father? Maybe going real low/no contact? That might save your marriage and your sanity.

Then you need a hotel or rental so you can come and go at your parents’ and in-laws.
And the sticking point then is why you cannot simply book this, pay a deposit, and save however much you need for that over the next eleven months

This ^

"6/7 visits a year and numerous emails daily is NOT low contact" absolutely - it is INSANE how much time and energy you give to this bullying arsehole!

Just STOP! Get counselling from someone who really understands toxic families and just stop pandering to him.

Have Christmas at home just the 4 of you and TELL your parents they're not welcome.

Simple but not way I know but have to say yes if I were in your dh's position I would be very sad, hurt and angry at how you're prioritising df over EVERYONE else who loves you.