Would you stay with a partner accused of rape?

[Scrapper142]

Inspired by news and personal experience, interested to know, would you stay and if you have experienced it, did stay or get out?

Ed Westwicks gf has been defending him and said she believes he's innocent. Although postponed getting engaged.

The man who raped me is happily in a new relationship. It's something I don't tend to think about, but his name was tagged in a fb post on my feed his week and in a moment of weakness I looked. There was a picture of his gf blissfully happy.

I just wonder how she stays with him (assuming she knows). I'm sure if she has been told it's an edited and manipluated version. But I expect she is completely unaware and unaware of the reality of the man she is sharing her life with. It makes me so sad for her and then so fucking angry (that he can do this).

It's strange as I feel connected to this complete stranger, I know it's not my problem but I can't help but worry about her. Then I think she'd probably never want to hear or accept the truth anyway?!?!

I think people assume their partner could never be guilty because they're thinking of extreme black and white situations - but what about coercion? That's still assault / rape. I wonder how many men, especially as teenagers, have never begged, nagged, manipulated, emotionally blackmailed or lied to get to do something the girl / woman didn't want to do - being a massive dick about it until they stop saying no. How many women's earliest sexual experiences have been coerced in some way? It's a massive proportion. Those guys don't think they're doing anything wrong. When I was discussing this with my husband this particular discussion was a game changer for him as he suddenly understood how normalised this is. He said that pretty much every woman he's ever been with has said they don't want to do certain things because they'd previously had a "bad experience", and he's only now realising what that actually meant.

There's a reason there are a host of other comfortable euphemisms related to rape and sexual assault - playing hard to get, casting cough, boys will be boys, and many more my brain can't access pre-coffee!

So no, your DH probably hasn't drugged and raped a woman (although it's possible), but never done such a thing? Questionable. Yes, I've been with a couple of boys / men who really weren't fussed about sex and would never have pushed my boundaries, but they're in the minority in my experience.

Okay so what about women who do the same? Do we view them in the same light? I know many women who beg, badger, barter, plead with their partners for sex...so surely this isn't just a male issue?

Some blokes believe that masculinity within a relationship means taking care of your woman. So I think to stereotype every man is unrealistic.

I was actually discussing this with my husband the other day in the light of the #metoo thing. I think it’s shocked him a bit how many men are shown to have been sexually abusive. It’s also an eye opener (hopefully) that abuse isn’t just the stereotypical violent stranger attack - it’s the wheedling and sulking and coercion and leverage that a significant proportion of men engage in. It’s abuse of power basically.

He was quite resistant to the idea of the majority of men doing this, because I think that genuinely that’s not his experience (and it isn’t for quite a lot of men, I’m thinking back through past boyfriends and while I’m sure I’ve been lucky most have been the shyer non pushy type. Anyone who’s sulked or wheedled or pushed it has been out the door sharpish)

.. but it’s not a minority of men who are doing these abusive acts. It’s really not. It’s a subtle spectrum from sulking and nagging to get their way all the way up to extreme violence, and it all comes from the same place: a toxic masculinity that sees women as objects to service men’s needs.

I don’t think looking to it as ‘good’ and ‘bad’
Men is useful. I think most of us have done things in our lives that we later were not happy with (not sexual coercion, just stuff) it’s more that we are all people and sometimes people do bad stuff. And I still think that you never know quite what a person is capable of.

And still, I would be beyond shocked if dh was accused of something like this. And that’s natural too, because no one wants to think theirbloved ones are capable of this. I hope I’d be objective, and I know that if I had doubts I’d be gone. That’s the best I can say.

mustbe

It’s wrong for anyone to coerce a partner into sex.
At the same time, the power dynamic is different with a man coercing. A woman can not force a man easily. A man can force a woman easily.

The example I’d give is of a man out for a drink with his friends, trapped in a loo/lift. Who is he more afraid of? The pushy boozed up female hen party member or the pushy, massive six foot four man who has been asking for his number all night?

The latter. Because the latter is capable of overpowering him.

Power balance is critical in these arguments. And no, it’s not ok for either partner to use emotional leverage for sex.

So it isn't just a masculine issue then. And unfortunately what you have just said about te power balance is why male victims of things like DV or sexual assault - because it does happen & more than people think - don't feel capable of talking. Because 'big strong men' shouldn't be overpowered/bullied/abused by 'weedy little girls'

I genuinely feel for lads growing up today. We send them such mixed messages!

It is predominantly a male issue though.

Look at the numbers and convictions of prisoners by sex - the vast majority of convictions for violent offences are male.
The vast majority of domestic violence perps are male

I am always uncomfortable when people make the ‘men are abused too’ statement. Yes they are abused. And that’s awful. At the same time, it’s used as a derailing tactic every single time I’ve seen a thread on domestic violence, rape, or female genital mutilation. Every single time. Someone always pops up and details the discussion away to men.

I don’t feel sorry at all for men growing up today. They are not a vulnerable class. They still run the world.
I have a son - he’s mainly into small toy cars right now. But as he gets older he will be raised to be a respectful human being. These are issues we will talk about, in age appropriate ways.

Ugh so sick of threads like this being derailed with statements like “women do it too” “ men are victims too”. So predictable.

How is that derailing??? It is just as much an issue as female abuse, or are we just going with the whole men are bastards suck it up??

Actually gobsmacked that throughout the whole man bashing thing very few people have realised that this is not just a female issue.

And yes, reported assaults etc are predominantly against women. Does not mean that women aren't violent cowbags too & actually all violent assault matters!!

I'm bowing out of this thread now. Wouldn't want to be accused of being a rapist sympathiser because i understand that it isn't just a male issue. Have a good day all

He was quite resistant to the idea of the majority of men doing this, because I think that genuinely that’s not his experience

What is his experience though? How often has been harassed or assaulted by men? The reason men are so naive about male sexual behaviour is that they are rarely on the receiving end. How would he know?

Around 15% of rape victims are male and roughly the same for dv. Some of that is male on male.

We are all aware that it’s not just women who are abused and it’s not just men who are capable of abusing.

Fact is that men commit the overwhelming majority of sex crimes, on both men and women. It’s not man bashing it’s just fact. Male violence is real and it needs addressing.

That’s exactly why I mean. Yes men are victims too - of men and of women. But that’s NOT what this thread was about.

Every single thread I’ve been on about the issues was started as asking about women and gets derailed to what about the men.

Feminism isn’t about man bashing - again that’s a derailing technique. Call the women raising an issue shrill/man haters etc etc, and then bam! Attention back on the men.

riding well yes exactly - his experience is as a heterosexual male. That’s sort of what we talked about - this issue that men don’t see it because it doesn’t happen to them. And when you do raise it to men they get defensive, because ‘some men do x’ is heard as ‘you as a male are being accused.’

Even my therapist has done this - I’ve made a balanced point about the proportion of my female circle who have experienced x. He says well no one I know has talked to me about x and I know a lot of women...

It shows you how privileged and insulated men are - even men who are decent and would never dream of behaving like this. They assume other men are the same Nd they tend to associate with similar men, which means they don’t see their friends doing it, they don’t do it, and thus it doesn’t exist

But no-one is saying it is a man issue. We are saying it is an issue with the culture of masculinity....

Why do you think men feel bad about being overpowered by stronger men?

Or about being abused by women?

It is because of the toxic culture of masculinity which equates being a man with being an abuser and being abused with being female and inferior.

That’s why people saying ‘men get abused by women too’ or ‘this is just man bashing’ is really unhelpful.

Women talking about how the culture around masculinity is damaging are very aware of the damage it also does to men.

However a woman will never be able to force her penis inside a man’s body, a man can never be left pregnant afterwards, and therefore it can never be really equal in terms of experience.

It shows you how privileged and insulated men are - even men who are decent and would never dream of behaving like this. They assume other men are the same Nd they tend to associate with similar men, which means they don’t see their friends doing it, they don’t do it, and thus it doesn’t exist

Totally agree with this. It's a nice little world but it's a very naive one.

He says well no one I know has talked to me about x and I know a lot of women...

That's a very bizarre response from a therapist. Who he knows and what they've said to him is irrelevant. Why would they tell him anyway? Unless he's talking about patients - which he shouldn't. He's casting doubt on what you've said, implying you may be exaggerating, at the very least indicating it's not representative. It's dismissive. If a therapist said that to me I'd hit the fucking roof.

I know three women who've been raped and I think that's fairly typical. I don't know any woman who's never been harassed or assaulted.

And actually as things stand, the culture of masculinity is the dominant way of socialising boys and girls, still now in 2017. Yes boys and men are starting to now suffer more because of it, but women and girls are still on every measure, in all the research, by all the stats, still living and suffering much much more.

Very few internet discussions I've seen on this topic have not been derailed by "what about the menz". People feel very uncomfortable discussing male violence.

It’s very 😩 when people equate a discussion about the issues of toxic socialisation of men and boys and the consequent result in terms of male violence as ‘hating on men’. It’s not. The position is simply that the objective evidence says the whole society suffers from this culture, women suffer more, but men suffer too.

People who feel equality means ‘the same’ are just not understanding what equality means or how to achieve it.

Bluelonerose that must be so hard to see, I am so sorry.

It's pretty common, I'm afraid. I know a politically active man who is very ostentatiously into blogging about initiatives to combat sexual violence against women. I think it's half self-deception (because he sees himself as a good guy) and half deliberate teflon-coating. It makes me sick to my stomach. And there are so many men this comment could be about.

The comments here are totally right - toxic masculinity is to blame for men feeling that women are inferior and therefore it's shameful to be abused by one. That isn't women's doing. These issues have the most impact on women but they do negatively effect men in some ways too.

No human beings are all good or all bad, male or female. Of course women can be abusive too, even sexually, but this discussion is not about that - we are discussing the fact that this behaviour is so ingrained in male attitudes towards women that both men and women fail to even recognise when assault or even rape occurs. How many posts have you seen here when women describe being raped by their husbands but then still insist they haven't been raped.

You'll often see MRAs decrying the fact that there are so many charities and support for abused women and hardly any for men, but conveniently ignore the fact that those things exist because women started them. They don't really give a shit about male victims until they need to deflect from male violence.

If men want to start a discussion and set up services about female on male violence in its own right, I'll be right behind them. But male violence is more prevalent and needs to be discussed without the deflection.

And I’ll just leave this here too...

Feminists are less hostile towards men than non-feminists.

Yes riding I agree.

I told him that of course his circle of female friends wouldn’t discuss such a thing with him (it was birth injury if that makes any difference.) I told him that the chances of anyone he knows except his wife discussing the degree done to their body by birth was zero, because it’s not like chatting about your kitchen revamp, or your summer cabin, or the kids nursery. It’s traumatic and intimate and is cast as shameful. And that it exists and that he was not to cast doubt in my lived experience

He’s a nice enough bloke - again, academic, nice sheltered little world. It’s not affected him personally, ergo it doesn’t exist. Typical.

I also don’t know single woman who hasn’t experienced harassment or violence. None.

These are difficult issues. And that’s why they need to be discussed. I for one am grimly pleased to see all these predators outed in the media. Good, I say. Let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about male power and how it corrodes society. Let’s change stuff.

I hate the whole man hating trope. I absolutely don't hate men. I probably should, and must admit there aren't many men I'd trust 100%, but I don't hate them and don't think most other feminists do either.

Have you actually seen the shit that "meninists" / men's rights activists post online? The misogyny is beyond imagination. If I ever wrote anything close to that about men, I'd have an inbox full of rape threats quicker than I could hit delete. Hell, I get rape threats for having an opinion on current affairs as it is.

If you're curious about the ultimate effects of toxic masculinity, do some reading on Return Of Kings, read up on Roosh V, MGTOW, red pillers or the worst stuff I've ever seen, which is "incel" (involuntary celibates - who claim that women refuse to have sex with them because they're ugly, they call this "reverse rape" and condone rape being made legal because that's merely an inconvenience compared to their suffering). Most men are intelligent enough to temper the inherent misogyny and sense of entitlement that boys are raised with in a patriarchal society, but when they're not the results are terrifying. And the numbers of men turning to MRA movements is growing all the time. It's legitimately terrifying.

People (male and female) who interpret a discussion about toxic masculinity and male violence as an attack on men are people who consciously or subconsciously believe that toxic masculinity is the same as being a man...

And actually I think that’s a very negative view of what it means to be born male.

The lovely Katie Hopkins tweeted recently that she'd never been sexually harassed or assaulted... despite the fact she'd publicly stated previously that she gets regular rape threats.

I've spoken to one woman who said she'd never been a victim of any of this - insisted it was a mountain out of a molehill and didn't happen. But when I pressed her on it of course she had experienced it, she just didn't classify it as such.

It shows you how privileged and insulated men are - even men who are decent and would never dream of behaving like this. They assume other men are the same

A hundred times this!

As a young analyst, I was sexually harrassed by a manager at my firm (not raped, thank goodness). When I finally worked up the courage to take this to HR, my usually lovely managing director at the time was incredibly apologetic and insisted he would have had the man fired if he had known.

The thing is: he did know. Because I had told him, several times. I'd just never had the guts to ask for a formal meeting and speak at him. But I'd mentioned almost all of the episodes that eventually escalated to him in passing. He just didn't hear their actual meaning because, not being an arsehole himself, this didn't really register with him as 'my male staffer is abusing my graduate hire' but as 'guilty pleasure: graduate hire bitching with me about a lower management staffer we both happen to dislike'.