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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Battling on!

981 replies

lollipop7 · 31/10/2017 20:06

So I'm starting a new thread following on from 0I don't know what to do" as we're almost full.
Blimey! How did that happen!

Seems lots of you are rather ruddy marvellous and want to keep going on this journey with me so I'm opening a new chapter.
Will be back with a proper update later 💐

OP posts:
Doublemint · 03/11/2017 21:22

Hold steady OP. Keep your children safe- you do what you have to do, trust your instincts and keep those babies close. If he wants contact this weekend then fuck it- be in breech of whatever. Hopefully the cafcass/social services/police reports etc will should be in your favour. At the end of the day you will keep you children safe. Wtf are they going to do- say a 38 week pregnant women is in contempt of court??? After other people haven't done their jobs?! Fuck that. Be strong. Ride out this weekend, birth your baby boy and keep fucking going.
You are a mumsnet legend as far as I'm concerned.

holdbackonthewine · 03/11/2017 22:46

Hear hear doublemint!

Seeds1962 · 03/11/2017 22:55

What double mint said,with bells and whistles and pompoms!

itsmeofcourse · 03/11/2017 23:20

as CAFCASS are a public body, and because the police and other bodies are involved, would it be worth seeing your local MP to see if they can put some pressure on? Just an idea

AvoidingDM · 04/11/2017 00:28

Lolli I just wish I could help you. I think it's awful that your having to deal with this shit when your so far gone.

RedastheRose · 04/11/2017 01:23

OP if you haven't had the order communicated to you then it is difficult to see how you could be found to be in contempt. Not an expert in this field but usually you can't be expected to comply with a court order when you are not aware of its contents.

However, If the judge gave his judgement in court on the day to your solicitor/barrister and you are simply awaiting the final typed version then yes I think you do need to comply (this used to happen as you used to have to take down the judges order verbatim in court but it's many years since I did this so it may well have changed now).

lollipop7 · 04/11/2017 04:32

All I know is fortnightly contact

According to him it's one of his parents
I think my barrister said it was both

I don't know times it wasn't communicated
Or the day it was to start
Or any restrictions in terms of area
Any other conditions

I know there were also other issues so it wasn't a straightforward order just for contact;

  • dates for f of f hearing tbc
-date for a submission of allegations
  • my barrister told me he was not to contact me. I don't know if that was part of the order but given that he contacted me six times within days of the hearings constitute a breach but I don't know

All I know is that the dates weren't fixed but likely to be some point on Dec for f of f hearing and November for submission. My solicitors haven't seen anything in form of contact or note ft counsel and I have this in writing as of Friday morning.

Nobody can tell me anything precise or put anything in writing other than contacts been ordered. Not helpful.

Court won't tell me the wording but did say there was an outstanding action for Friday Hmm they've logged my enquiry and concern.

It seems ludicrous that this is all somehow my fault when I was sat in a conference room in agony and in tears wondering if I was going into labour.

Moreover I said I wanted s contact centre I didn't trust him or his parents especially since he's threatened to take them off me but all this got ignored and it was made clear to me if I wanted to discuss in more detail then speak to my solicitor once we got the order as my money had run out.
He didn't look at my evidence or listen to me really and I paid for an hour of conference time but got 19 minutes. Solicitors don't want to know. Just wasn't to wash their hands of everything and hang me out to dry

OP posts:
JWrecks · 04/11/2017 05:12

I don't know times it wasn't communicated
Or the day it was to start
Or any restrictions in terms of area
Any other conditions

and

he contacted me six times within days of the hearings constitute a breach but I don't know

and the fact you're giving birth in some 36 hours or so... I would imagine that absolutely nobody in the world could fault you if there was no contact this weekend, if you simply took the weekend to relax and get some dearly needed and well deserved rest, cuddle the DC, put up your feet, prepare for LolliPup, and clear your mind of this nightmare for just a day.

Since you were never told solid dates, and he has been harassing contacting you ever since, I think it is perfectly fair to assume that nothing has been initiated yet. His continued contacting of you would demonstrate that he didn't think the order was in place as of this time.

You've done literally all you can possibly do, all anyone on earth could do (and then some!), and the other party in the case has not begun obeying any court orders yet. You are extremely pregnant and being induced Monday. It's perfectly reasonable to take a DAY.

And even if he kicks up some kind of fuss over any contact this weekend, this is the very first time you'll have ever stepped outside of any line you've been issued (or not been issued...). You've done every single thing a human being can do, and done it all right. He, on the other hand, has been a right shit, towards you, towards police, towards the court, towards your children, and he has been disobeying or disregarding orders or at least acting as though they haven't officially begun yet, all along.

This has all been such an outrage, and it's been hard just to watch it happen to you from a distance, that I really hope you do (and are able to) just rest and relax for right now. You really need it, love, and nobody deserves it more. Just breathe easy, if only for a day.

As always, thinking of you, praying it all goes well Monday, praying everything falls into place for you, praying that the police follow through and back you up, that your new solicitor is amazing, that the court sees reason, and that you get some bloody peace for once!! Flowers [MamaBear]!!

RandomMess · 04/11/2017 09:13

If he turns up you call the police and say you haven’t seen the contact order despite chasing for it. If he kicks off they will likely just send him away.

You can discuss with the police that you have since raised serious safeguarding concerns that are under investigation and you are in the process of stay of arrangements.

Don’t hand them over, they can’t actually force you -same with your Mum whilst you are in hospital Flowers

holdbackonthewine · 04/11/2017 09:40

I was going to say can you involve the police team who have been good recently and ask them to send someone this weekend as you know he or a family member will come at some point? I think PP’s suggestion of your MP is a good one too. They are often in their constituencies at weekends and may have a surgery. But about to give birth this may be too much for you.

I’m so sorry the legal system has let you down.

lollipop7 · 04/11/2017 10:08

You all always make me feel less alone in all of this. Thanks for your lovely message and words of reassurance @JWrecks @RedastheRose @RandomMess @holdbackonthewine @Doublemint @Seeds1962 @itsmeofcourse
Phew hope I remembered you all

I have tried my MPs and sent my police complaints to them. Heard nothing from current or former one.
I won’t be handing them over, but the radio silence is a worry. He’s never stayed away this long before I won’t allow myself to believe someone has had a sensible quiet word with him about putting e through the mill when I am this pregnant. He doesn’t listen to anyone so I fear something is brewing.

I have got everything ready to go Monday when I’m assuming they’ll finally tell me about the Court Order HmmConfusedHmm
I can’t believe it’s such a massive mess

OP posts:
lollipop7 · 04/11/2017 12:49

Well there must be someone looking out for me somewhere.

Got the order from the courts today and one paragraph in particular jumped out at me

Has contact order attached but states the following "mother agreed to contact continuing on a supervised basis provided that the father adhered to the agreement, did not seek additional contact and did not communicate with her"

Well the order specifically states "supervised by his parents" NOT one. As he told me 😉

So he has not made both parents available and on the basis of the court order being effective as of date of the hearing has well,and truly shot himself in both feet, since he sought additional contact on email, called, texted, sent Skype messages and sent me an email threatening me with an enforcement order as I had not complied with the Court Order. Oh and had his odious parents call me and my poor Mother. All done before I saw the Court Order and sat wondering whether or not the conditions incumbent upon him were in it, but kept being told to comply comply comply. Well someone didn’t tell him that did they??!!

So as I suspected he had already breached the order. At least eight times. And I have incontrovertible proof of all of them. Won’t do his harassment interview much good either will it, a breach of a court order!

Also had letter from solicitors today confirming the barrister has failed to provide Note of attendance as of 5pm and they still don’t know the wording of the Order. So I was right to hang fire and keep saying as was always the case and true that really didn’t know the exact wording because this proves it. It also well and truly exonerates me in terms of proving I had no knowledge of what is now and outstanding action as per the Court Order. That is down to poor communication between my barrister and solicitor and NOT me. I can also prove I even rang the court in desperation as there is a log of it attached to the official file.

Feel a bit calmer now as I have an evidential basis for redress on all three counts of that clause. Due to his breach(es) I am not obliged to discharge contact as per the Court Order. I will not be making my children available for contact tomorrow or any other time until a court hearing is reconvened in keeping with my adjournment request and the contact hearing at cost to their fucking father.

So before I sack them I am instructing them to immediately apply for a stay of arrangements based on him breaching the court order eight times before supervised Contact has to take place.

And they need to get my adjournment in.

Then I'm switching solicitors as I've got the Court Order.

A small victory but a victory nonetheless

OP posts:
dizzy174 · 04/11/2017 13:02

we are all looking out for you:)) wishing you and your family a peaceful weekend x

Frouby · 04/11/2017 13:04

Oh Lolli that is the bestest bloody news.

It's not a small victory it's a massive one. Now you can relax a bit this weekend and look forwards to monday. And hopefully a few weeks peace and quiet. Flowers from him at least. Not sure how quiet a 3 year old, 1 year old and a newborn will be.

MrsBertBibby · 04/11/2017 13:17

Lollipop, that's great, but I have questions.

Did you in fact instruct your barrister that you agreed to contact on those conditions? I assume not, or you would have known that was what the order said.

If that's the case then your barrister massively exceeded his instructions. That's a serious conduct issue, unless your solicitor put in their instructions to him that you would agree, in which case they are similarly in hot water. I think you need to demand an explanation, and a copy of Counsel's brief.

Your barrister should have insisted on an adjournment when you were taken ill. Insisted. Especially when the safeguarding letter wasn't given to him.

From all you've said, this is a right old mess.

I'm not convinced you need apply formally for a variation of the order. He has failed to do as required, therefore contact is forfeit, it's for him to get it back to court, not you.

CiderwithBuda · 04/11/2017 13:20

Good news. Of a sort. I really cannot believe how shit the legal side are being. You are an intelligent, articulate and strong person. I can't imagine how it would be for someone who didn't have those strengths or had been worn down so much they couldn't see the wood for the trees. It really is shocking.

RandomMess · 04/11/2017 13:52

Thank f*ck for that - hurrah!

lollipop7 · 04/11/2017 14:02

All he told me was Contact was fortnightly by his parents and that was the best I could hope for. I’ve never denied I knew that, it was the details surrounding it that nobody knew, I was told would be within the actual Order. That’s all I knew. That’s why I’ve said I didn’t know whether all those threats and emails last week continued a breach, that’s why I was trying to get the note of attendance and Court Order. I felt so ill and pressurised it was a bit of a blur. In effect I suppose I agreed duress essentially and have been saying this since October 12th but my solicitor just wants to cover his arse and deny it all. They’re a nest of vipers who can’t be bothered to do the right thing by me. Frankly it’s utterly contemptuous.

If he hadn’t breached the order already so many times I had resigned myself to allowing contact or being in breach myself as of tomorrow if I refused, though there’s been no word from him so was in limbo. If that clause wasn’t in it certainly was the case. The lack of an enforcement order from the other side suggested to me that as of today I have not breached a thing otherwise it would have been served on me. My solicitors confirmed in writing yesterday that the other side haven’t served anything.

I said I wanted a contact centre I wasn’t happy. I said this to him and CAFCASS but no there was none of that. It was made abundantly clear my time and money had run out and that was the judge’s decision.. I feel as though my condition and fears were just either exploited or ignored, by everyone including those who were supposed to protect me. I truly can’t recall every word that was said and like you thought it should have been adjourned.

I know my solicitor didn’t give him all the emails and evidence. He did show the judge the Skype videos and that put a stop to that but that’s about it. I haven’t seen the brief of instruction so I shall request that.

He cast a cursory glance over my evidence, but it is clear from the Order he didn’t raise the repeated breaches of contact.

This is why they refused yesterday to apply for my stay of arrangements / variation application based on the fact my evidence and proven specific instruction on email dating from the 9th October regarding my wishes around no direct contact implicated them, and cast my solicitor and my barrister in a dim light. They started shitting themselves at that point and indeed the entire firm of Solicitors shut down and didn’t return any of my calls or emails. Reading the Court Order it is clear for the wording they failed to prepare and prepared to fail. They just wanted to get in and out twice. My ex’s solicitor denied he’d breached contact the Counsel didn’t serve the evidence that I gave them that he had. Until today I had no idea.

It’s not just the two of them CAFCASS saw me in a total state sobbing about his threats and his treatment of the children and she walked back in there and said there was no risk of emotional harm.

This is why I’m having to complain to CAFCASS.

It is a bloody shambles.

Apparently my having to agree in tears on a hospital monitor and in a conferencing room because my barrister told me that was the best I could get is my agreeing. Despite me reminding my solicitor about the harassment warning in place. I’ve spent every day since October 12th fighting that supposition but they won’t hold their hands up and prefer to collude, stitching me up like a kipper which I why I have to comply.

Unfortunately for them I have a paper trail and emails for all of this which will be sent to my new solicitors.

This is why I need a new solicitor to go right back to when the failure to adjourn and represent occurred on the 12th because it all flows from there and my solicitors have shut down on me. The letter from my solicitor confirming that he has not seen the order or the note as of yesterday also confirms that the lack of communication between them regarding this bloody list of allegations

It’s good news that due his conduct he has to bring it back to court again. I didn’t know that. I’m trying to learn how to be a solicitor and all these procedures are all whizzing around my head.

In terms of next steps i suppose I need to consider whether these idiots can be trusted to apply for my adjournment and properly this time and sort out communicating the breach to the other side or I need to just cut ties now and hope that instructing a new solicitor can wait until after I’ve had the baby.
My instinct was to get them to do those two relatively simple things (even for them) then terminate when I get out of hospital, lodge the complaint etc.

Time really isn’t on my side.

OP posts:
3kidscrazy · 04/11/2017 14:04

Phew! Really hope you get some rest and a bit of respite from it all this weekend. Good luck. Thinking of you and your littles Flowers

3kidscrazy · 04/11/2017 14:07

Posted before your update! Just read your updated post. Still so much you’re battling with. What a shambles for you. Perhaps getting a new solicitor sooner than later might be best...?

rainbowstardrops · 04/11/2017 15:07

FFS!!!! There are just so many failures at every turn!
Why is there a bloody system in place to safeguard children if the bloody system fails the vulnerable????!!!!!
It’s totally outrageous.
Easier said than done but you need a shit hot lawyer.
As ever in this country, the victims come off worse than the perpetrator.
Angry Angry

Gemini69 · 04/11/2017 15:22

Lollipop I'm so glad you have the Order physically in your hands Lady.... strength and courage to you and your kids at the very late stage in your pregnancy... I hope your looking after yourself in these final days/hours of your due date.... Flowers

holdbackonthewine · 04/11/2017 16:00

I’m also relieved by today’s news but still so enraged the way you’ve been treated at every turn. I wonder is there anyone on here who can recommend a really on the ball family law solicitor and barrister? Without outing can you say if your North South East or West? Nothing quite like a personal recommendation and, as you say, you need someone to go right back to the beginning.

On a practical level can you be elsewhere tomorrow? Somewhere less obvious than family? God, if I lived near you I’d say come round!

You’re in my thoughts Lollipop.

MrsBertBibby · 04/11/2017 16:01

Lollipop, it's the finding of Fact you want to adjourn, is that right?

Does the order you now have give a date, or is it still "first available date after xyz"? Because if so there's not much point applying to adjourn until you have a date set.

Also any application to adjourn needs to include a re-setting of the court's timetable for Scott schedules etc, and that is best done by your new solicitors, who will be perfectly happy to throw the last lot under the bus, rather than by the outgoing lot, who have their own arises to cover.

So, I would suggest you do this

  1. Tell old firm to stop everything
  2. Tell new firm they are go, what do they need from you, you will sort it when you can.
  3. Have baby (this may have to be no 1)
  4. Get home, establish breastfeeding, rest, drink much tea
  5. Check new firm have what they need and get them started.
  6. Raise Ombudsmen complaints against old solicitor & barrister.
holdbackonthewine · 04/11/2017 16:03

Shows how cross I am as I’m normally hot on grammar! Excuse your for you’re etc...