So this is it then...

[pointythings]

So my DH is an alcoholic. I gave him an ultimatum in July - the drink or his family. He chose to go into rehab. Two weeks ago he finished treatment.

Tonight I came home after a night away with DDs to ComicCon and he was slurring, showing all the signs. So I snooped. Yep, empty bottle of spirits hidden in his backpack.

I confronted him and the first thing he said was 'can we not do this in front of the girls. Oh how the alcoholics like their secrecy. No, H, the girls need to know - they are 14 and 16 and they have been part of all the conversations.

So now my marriage is over. Shit. I am not backing down. This is it, done, finished. No more chances, he's had plenty. I still feel like shit.

Got an appointment to get a call from Wikivorce tomorrow so will be able to get things going. He's still not really talking, isn't eating either. I've told work, they are being lovely and supportive. DD2 is completely refusing to talk to him. I understand that - she really feels betrayed, the alcoholism was a huge issue for her. But it doesn't help the atmosphere.

At least he went to work today. He's clearly sad, but hey - so am I. It is what it is.

Hi pointythings, I wrote a long post detailing what your H is probably feeling today and then deleted it because - although you obviously still care and it's completely understandable, his recovery is just that - his recovery - as you say, he's done the 12 step programme and he'll have the tools to recover from his relapse if that's what he wants to do. Your detachment of yesterday is healing for you and your daughters. Great that your work are being supportive; focus on what you have that's positive (a lot). Your DDs may both in time have an understanding of their father - they will undoubtedly be grateful to you for your actions now. You've given him every single chance and more.

Hi Lobster - I think you are right to say that his recovery is his to own. I feel sorry for him, but only in a distant sort of way. His sadness doesn't really touch me, that is how detached I am.

My DDs are very insightful and mature for their ages. They understand that with a two generation family history of alcoholism, they are at increased risk and need to adjust what they do in life accordingly. They also understand the difference between the person and the disease - but at the same time they have their feelings over what he did at the weekend and those feelings are valid. DD1 is doing shallow chit-chat, DD2 is not speaking to him and both those things are allowed. I'm being breezy and shallow myself - time enough to get serious when things start moving with the divorce and he actually has to do stuff. He's a bugger for never taking any initiative so I am prepared to have to nag.

pointythings I take my proverbial hat off to you; your attitude, resolve, calmness and support of your daughters all sound fantastic in a very difficult situation. As an aside, your DDs sound a little like mine (just the one) - she's also always been mature and insightful and is currently in her second year at a RG university reading, of course, psychology. She has said that she feels she was able to extract some positives from the years when she remembers my active drinking (not something I am at all proud of although we've always had a great relationship).

Wishing you and your daughters all the very best for the future

Lobster I'm feeling a bit humbled here... I don't feel I am doing anything special. I am doing what is necessary. I am refusing to beat myself up for not doing it earlier.

In a weird way I am taking positives from this too. The main one is the knowledge that things can be overcome - whether in the physical sense or mentally.

@pointythings I’ve just popped on to see how you are.

Your mindset is - to me anyway!- spot on and I am full of admiration for the composed, dignified and still caring way you are approaching this.

In the midst of all this sadness and final disappointment you still have your children’s orientation as paramount.

You don’t stop loving or caring for someone because they have a dreadful affliction to bear / disease (sorry I don’t know the best term ) such as alcoholism. It’s dreadful. You’ve got so used to losing them that the final goodbye is somehow less devastating. Though my ex’s frightening drinking was accompanied by horrific emotional and psychologically coercive abuse I could always see his drink problem for what it was.
I value the peace that comes that not being around someone that has a toxic relationship with alcohol. I don’t miss the way exuberance turned to turmoil at best, fear at worst. I don’t miss the way I had to parent two young children for the two of us or keep trying to shrug off the gnawing fear by mistakenly overcompensating for the drinking. Most of all I don’t miss the fact that I could never relax and feel safe in the knowledge that there was someone truly able to take care of us. I would sometimes look at him as he stopped throwing up, stopped stumbling and slurring his words, stood shaking in the shower the next day, or told me he could rip me apart with such hideous rage in his eyes and wonder how my life had come to this but I suppose I was blinded by thinking what we had was something it wasn’t. I won’t ever fully recover. But I think I am learning to free myself of aspects of it.

I hope you manage to get some rest tonight and that things stay calm and progress in some small way is made over tomorrow.

Your children - and in fact your ex - are very fortunate to have you in their lives 💐

I would like to add my story in the hope that it might help and also be cathartic for me as I am struggling with losing my alcoholic ex partner.

I supported him through two rehabs - after he left the second time we went away for a short break during which he drunk a couple of drinks per night but when we got home he went on a massive bender. We carried on after that for about eighteen months with many hospitalisations and incidents.

We don't live together and I resisted moving the relationship forward but always clung on to the hope he would turn it around and we could move forward. I have two older dcs to consider and did not want them exposed to his active alcoholism. We separated last year but kept in touch and he always said he wanted to get things back on track - during this period he moved to a block of flats where most people who lived there were active addicts - drugs and alcohol. Things got alot worse and I didn't want to stay there as it was a truly horrible place. He then found different accommodation this year which was meant to be a fresh start but he still associated with the old crowd. This included a female alcoholic who clearly fancied him although he always maintained they were just friends.

I won't list here all the things that have happened to him since he began spiralling down but not the sort of stuff anyone would want to experience.

I still kept a sliver of hope he would turn things around - he still maintained he loved me and I love him but about a month ago he dropped the bombshell that he was in a relationship with the 'friend'.

That hadn't stopped him asking me to sleep with him on two occasions - however i must have had a sixth sense and turned him down.

One one level I know I've dodged a bullet but it still hurts so much and I really feel sad he has chosen this path.

I had become increasingly judgemental and critical of his choices and I suppose as a fellow active alcoholic she does not put anything on him- but surely together they can only go downwards

I know the fact I am not with him is for the best but that doesn't stop me feeling devastated.

However he couldn't be around my dcs - they liked him originally but when they could see the strain he put me under they said in no uncertain terms that I should end things.

So Pointy I know you have done the right thing and it is sad but the bottom line is that you have to protect yourself and your dcs otherwise I think the active addict will just drag you down with them.

And if they start to associate with other active addicts its the road to hell!

I am currently no contact with my ex and although we have some minor loose ends to tie up I have no intention of contacting him. I have told him he has made his choice. I could never go back as he has lied, disrespected me and strung me along.

It’s a bit of a conundrum isn’t it ?

He’s addicted and won’t give up of his own choosing.

If you stay, you have to monitor, police and control him all the time to stop the drinking. That’s a tough life.

On the other hand if you leave he will almost certainly descend into a spiral of drink, dirt, depression and decay that will only end in a very premature death.

A very tough call.

But talking about his “last chance” and thinking that he could “choose” to give up but won’t is just nonsense. He’s addicted. There is no moral or rational side to an addict. The only way to deal with them to is to treat them like the monsters they are.

At least yours isn’t particularly violent or abusive.

Well the monitoring and policing doesn't work as you can't control or cure it.

Some addicts do manage to stop and recover through whatever means available to them - eg AA or SMART - in that situation there must be some choice they are making.

But I do realise that its not rational or easy and the life they lead either way is extremely difficult.

But you cannot have an active addict around dcs - its not fair to them to have to experience it.

The monitoring and policing is a stage you go through before realising and accepting that you can't control what the addict is doing. Been there, done that.

I strongly suspect that once my H is in the US, with no job, family or other anchors, it's very likely that he will spiral. He does have family in the US, but whether he will reach out to them is the question. However, none of that is my problem any more. If he does end up dying young, I will support my DDs and make sure they get bereavement counselling and all the support they need. And I will get the same for myself.

Mantegnaria - many of us are extremely moral and rational. We are not all "monsters" either. These are sweeping statements.

Pointythings no need to feel humbled! I may be on the other side, as it were, but I have enough experience of relationships in the rooms to appreciate how difficult it is.

Growing up with an alchoholic father was not easy, my mother made the decision like you OP that she couldn't continue to support my father and he left when I was a teenager. Unfortunately he didn't manage to sort himself out and he died, however I am full of admiration that my mother finally put me and her first after years of living with an alcoholic.Your strength for your dds is amazing and I wish you all the best

Mantegnaria using terminology like 'monsters' is not helpful. Addiction is an illness. It makes people do things they would not otherwise think of doing. You have to differentiate between the person and the illness. As a partner/child/other relative you have the absolute right to protect yourself by detaching, disengaging and leaving that person to take their own course, but thinking of them as monsters isn't helpful.

heart you have done the right thing and you know that. There comes a time when you have to protect yourself. And you are allowed to feel sad about the loss of what you might have had with your exP.

Just read the whole thread and I think you are doing amazingly well. You and your girls must feel so sad and disappointed. Good luck for the future and I hope that he can pull himself together and be there for your girls rather than going off to the States and off the rails, but you're right - you can't help him with that. God knows, it sounds like you've tried!

Wishing you well.

So now I have The Email Of Great Remorse. All about how he knows he has fucked up, that he didn't even enjoy it, that he will do anything for just one final chance.

The heart says no. The head says no as well.

You are doing the right thing.
I was 16 when my mum hit bottom and I desperately needed a safe space to call home.
You are doing the right thing by all 4 of you.
for you.

And just as an aside, I'm sure you already know. You cannot help or heal addicts, only be clear with what you will tolerate.
Fwiw it has taken 14 years but my mum is on track now and we have a nice relationship. It is absolutely possible for them to come out the other side with out you.

He probably didn't enjoy it. Not your problem. Glad to hear that you are staying strong and resolute. You have given more than enough and you're doing the right thing (as you know).

Someone upthread made a comment (a nice, reasonable one) about whether alcoholics have a choice. We're told in AA that we are powerless over alcohol, which we are. However the first drink is our choice. After that our "allergy" or addiction kicks in and there isn't a choice. That's how I see it. I think the same person said that it was a constant struggle - truthfully, it isn't. If you want something enough, you know what you have to do the get it, if that makes sense. If someone put a bottle of wine and a cup of tea in front of me, it would be no contest because I choose sanity.

Sorry OP, that was as I said a response that something earlier. I'm really glad to hear that you are ok and continuing on your path of detachment and freedom.

Lobster no, thank you for helping me clarify my feelings. My bottom line is that I cannot risk another moment like the one I had last Saturday. I can't take the chance that the DDs and I have to live through that betrayal again. I'm out of strength.

So it's going to be no. And the thing is, he doesn't have to go back to the States. he could stay here in his job, find a flat, work on his recovery properly and rebuild a relationship with us as co-parenting exH. If that means a different asset split, I am really on board with that.

But the divorce is happening.

ppintythings whether he goes back to the US is, as you say, entirely up to him. Reading your last post reminded me though that lots of people in AA only "got it" when they'd lost everything and had nobody to lean on and nowhere to go. Essentially staying with an active alcoholic could be said to be enabling them in a way.

Anyway - active alcoholics are also often terrible at making decisions for themselves so I do suggest that you give absolutely no advice or opinions as to his future actions/plans. I'm sure that you wouldn't anyway. His circus, his monkeys.

The email is unfortunately a stark reminder of the abusive and manipulative components of this disease/illness.

To function in a family on any level the alcoholic requires a fairly hefty dollop of self preservation skills. Here’s a great example of them.

I can tell that you knew it was coming.
Just stick to your guns you know there’s no other choice really anyway.

Is he actually offering a concrete action plan for what he will do (since he will apparently do anything) or is it just the passive 'you tell me what to do, I'll engineer reasons to make it your fault if I fail'?

Did he go to a meeting as soon as he woke up the morning after he relapsed? I know he's not in AA but he must have discussed an action plan with his counsellor for what to do if a relapse happened. Did he make any attempt to re-engage with his recovery at once?

I quite agree, though - last chance has to mean last chance. If you were to back down now - not that I see the slightest chance of that happening - you'd be sending him the message that his actions have no consequences. And you'd be sending your dds the messages that you don't care about how his actions affect them. You'd be no-one a favour in the long term by backing down - least of all yourself.

Is he actually offering a concrete action plan for what he will do (since he will apparently do anything) or is it just the passive 'you tell me what to do, I'll engineer reasons to make it your fault if I fail'?
The latter, though not sure about making it my fault. I wouldn't care if he did though.

Did he go to a meeting as soon as he woke up the morning after he relapsed?
No. And I'd have found one and bloody driven him there. (He does not drive, never has)

I know he's not in AA but he must have discussed an action plan with his counsellor for what to do if a relapse happened. Did he make any attempt to re-engage with his recovery at once?
Nope. I asked him if he was going to his regular Monday evening meeting yesterday and he said 'I don't think so'. And spent the evening sitting on the sofa in silence before going up to bed at early o'clock.

This morning I threw up while I was in the shower. People here go on about how I'm so strong and all that. He probably thinks I'm strong and/or unfeeling because I've been carrying on with life as usual as best I can. I am none of those things. I am in bits.

And just in case anything is unclear - I started this thread to get support for me. I have no interest in advice about managing or supporting him - that ship has sailed. And if I start sounding like I am wavering from that, hand me a grip.