He won't give back the children

[Witchofthenorth]

Hi all, this might be long so apologies but I don’t want to drip feed.

STBXH has contact with the children once a fortnight for a whole weekend. This time though he asked if he could have them for the week as it’s school holidays here, which was no problem. I don’t have issue with him seeing the kids whenever he likes, within reason due to school and things. We live 50 miles away from him and the kids schools are in a different local authority.

Anyway, last week, the kids were off and I was working for a few days. I left my very capable 14, nearly 15yr old son and 13 year old daughter in charge of their younger siblings who are 9 and 6.

The older two have been left alone before and have had some times where they have looked after the younger two prior to this. When I’ve had to go to the shops or doctors appointments and such. So this wasn’t something sprung on them but it was for longer than before.

They know what to do in an emergency, have neighbours they can go to and had my number if they needed. I would have came home immediately if I had to. I also left some chores for them, hoovering, load the dishwasher and my oldest had the grass to cut.

Last night STBXH called me and went mad down the phone, in front of my older two, who I have since found out are a bit shook up at how their father spoke to me, shouting the odds about how it was wrong of me to leave them, the older two should only be on their own for minutes, not hours and the younger two shouldn’t be looked after by their older siblings. I am a bad mother, the kids don’t have a life, they should be playing and that I was neglectful in leaving them and I should have them taken from me.

He has now said that the kids are staying with him next week and the week after (schools go back Monday) and I’m terrified he won’t bring them back. He said he is going to fight for custody and I am so scared. I want my children back. I was speaking to my oldest and he wants to come home but is scared to tell his father. I have told STBXH that the kids come back Friday as planned but I don’t think he is moving on his decision.

Need some hand holding please. I don’t think I was wrong in what I did but I am now doubting myself. My kids are good kids, sensible and level headed. I’ve been trying to teach the how to become functioning adults (the older two anyway) and in some respects I treat then as young adults, teaching them to cook, use an iron, use the washing machine etc. He doesn’t see any of this and wants them to be wrapped in cotton wool forever.

What the fuck am I going to do?

I also think you should inform social services about his intentions to abduct his children and contact the police if he does not return them.

You say he has never agreed to help with childcare. Do you have anything to this effect in writing?

I hope you get this resolved quickly. He sounds like an abusive arsehole.

It's true a six year old may be mature enough to leave alone (better than with another 6yo) for short while. Safe to play or watch tv if not too naughty, but what if there is a fire or she is taken ill? So long as you have plans to cover that..

Fire: Go outside, alert neighbours, call me.
Ill: Call me

Police or social services might not be able to do much if there's no court order in place but the missing school thing might change that.

You didn't do anything anything wrong. It's more worrying that so many people think children of those ages can't all be left at home for the day. How are they being brought up that they're not trustworthy or competent?

Everyone bleeting on about it not being fair on the older one(s), it was for a couple of days of half term, not the entire summer holidays fgs.

Anyway, it's irrelevant, he can't just decide to keep the children.

I hope you get good legal help to get this sorted, though I don't suppose there's much they can do until the point in time where they should have been brought home.

He's a total wanker for kicking off in front of the children. I'm guessing that'll bite him on the arse though, because if the children don't want to go next time, I wouldn't be making them.

You probably need a Child Arrangements Order - info here:
rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-information/family-law/children-law-parents-separate/
Rights of Women also have a free family law helpline that you could call.

I have an almost 15 year old sensible DS but I wouldn't leave him alone to cut the grass unsupervised!

There are multiple issues here.

Firstly, the law is in fact not black and white on this. While technically leaving a fourteen and thirteen year old in charge of younger siblings isn't illegal, if anything were to happen to the children while the parent is not there the parent could well be considered to be negligent or guilty of neglect. That is of course the extreme end of the spectrum, but to those posters who are saying that nobody did anything wrong, in legal terms if something did go wrong the law might not agree.

Also, if a poster posted here that her older two were expected to spend the majority of the holiday looking after younger (as young as six,) siblings and doing housework including using a lawnmower unsupervised advice would be to seek some legal advice and to even stop his contact during the holidays.

The ex was wrong to have reacted in the way he did, however it seems very clear that the older two have (rightfully) complained about the way they were treated during the holidays and their thoughts need to be considered as well.

I agree this could be a way to discuss greater access over the holidays which will allow you to work and give the DC some freedom at the same time. As a one off day it's ok to expect teens to be home doing the housework, although you should be making alternative arrangements for the younger two, but for several days over a holiday your ex is right, they should be being children and out with their mates if they so want.

As for the posters saying "my parents did x and y when I was younger," times have changed. A lot of benign neglect went on back in the 60's and 70's which while we all argue didn't do us any harm, certainly shouldn't be considered the norm.

There of course should be some middle ground there but what happened in the 60s and 70's is not indicative of what happens and should happen now.

Why ever not? A popular summer job for 15 year olds where I live is graveyard maintenance which includes cutting the grass - they should be able to cope with a lawn mower just fine at that age.

^^directed at CPtart

Seems to me that it is a question of different values. Your ex does not think that it's okay, you think it's okay. As you have done nothing illegal, it's just his opinion that is different to yours. He chose to voice his opinion to you, but not in a very constructive way. He then chose to keep the children off school, again not illegal, but it will cause problems for him.

When the dust has settled, perhaps you could have a chat to him about how you do these things in future and come to an agreement.

Also, if a poster posted here that her older two were expected to spend the majority of the holiday looking after younger (as young as six,) siblings and doing housework including using a lawnmower unsupervised advice would be to seek some legal advice and to even stop his contact during the holidays.

You what? 2 days at home with siblings, with a couple of jobs to do around the house is hardly arduous! And mowing the lawn - sure, if it's some antique petrol behemoth perhaps it's a bit dodgy, but if it's a plastic flymo (they even have plastic blades these days), then I would think a 14 year old would be fine!

Clearly we have entirely different expectations of family life.

OP - keeping the kids off school is unacceptable, that alone is a huge negative for him, as is yelling at you in front of the kids, and breaking contact agreements. Get legal advice. You can get this sorted.

Op, if you had sent your letter / message to social services, instead of Mumsnet, how do you think they would have reacted !?

Would they have agreed with your view and some of the posters on here, saying it wan't an issue......

Of do you think they would have sent a team round A.S.A.P. and viewed it as child abandonment !?

It sounds to me that you know you were in the wrong but you are still trying to convince yourself that black is actually white......

Lawnmowers are dangerous for a 14yo? What?! Lots of pearl clutching going on here.
It's not fair to leave the older 2 in charge on a regular basis. I definately think 13 is too young. I say this as someone who was forced to babysit randoms and family from a young age.
Going forward you need to find alternative childcare arrangements. Seek legal advice re contact arrangements.

If your STBEXH's solicitor could read your post, he'd have a field day with you in court.......

He'd rip you to bits, regardless if, generally, you are in fact a brilliant Mum.....,

You did nothing wrong op. Your children are old enough to spend a day at home with our you. A 15 year old is practically an adult and a 13 year old.Is old enough to look after two younger siblings.

My.kids are similarly aged and I leave them on a regular basis as they don't want to come whilst I take some of them to clubs. Older two, walk to and from school etc. The lawnmowing is ok too because there was another older child to.look after the little ones. And like me, you live close to.neighbours that they could alert within.seconds if something happened.

You know your kids better than anyone else, so I'm sure you know if they're responsible enough to be left.

I was certainly looking after children for full days at that age. And mowing lawns.

And the argument that "it isn't much of a holiday for the older kids" makes me .

As teenagers, I would certainly expect my kids to be taking on some family responsibilities and not lounging around/being entertained for the entire time off school. It's a good thing, not a punishment!

According to RoSPA figures, 87,000 people were recorded having accidents in the garden, 11,500
With lawn mowers.....

Is your lawn mower mechanical !? If electric, do you use it with an RCD !? Any lawn mower has the capacity to do a great deal of damage......

If your Ex's solicitor presented these stats in court, it wouldn't look good for you........

You have some rebalancing to do, especially with child care arrangements......

Serialcheat(nice name btw )) your comments that SS would have "sent a team round ASAP and viewed it. As child abandonment" is laughable, as is the idea that a solicitor would rip her to shreds in court
And to others who said that the kids must have complained to dad, where do you get that from? They might have just been chatting about what they had been up to
OPi thought your arrangements sound reasonable

His response of being verbally abusive and keeping them off school is not acceptable

I have to agree with pp that there’s a lot of pearl clutching going on here. The OP has already said that she normally works in school hours, so this is not a regular occurrence. This is about the ex controlling and judging, not about the children’s welfare, it’s another stick to beat her with. Teenagers moan about having to do stuff for the family, I did and so did my adult ds, but I think the OP is spot on in preparing them for adulthood.
The ex has achieved his objective and sent the OP into a flat spin of worry. He won’t keep the kids off school, he’s bluffing to upset you. Get the residency order ASAP, and carry on doing a wonderful job

Op for what it's worth I can't see what you've done wrong, your stbx sounds like he's throwing his weight around and trying to intimidate you. Can't understand why previous posters are objecting to teenagers doing a few chores and babysitting . As you said it's not very often and they know what to do in an emergency. He doesn't have their best interests at heart if he keeps them off school. He sounds like a dick. I guess that's why he's stbx. Good luck

Additionally, what planet are we on where we don't expect our older children to take full part in being in the family and complet chores when asked especially to help run the household while mum goes to work. My kids do this all the time in half term etc it's not always treats and trips laid on every day that's just unrealistic. I think the op is preparing her children well.

This happened to me, the difference was I had a court order, the police ensured I got my child back, an emergency court order was then put in place ensuring he only had supervised access.
Apply to the court and ask for an emergency hearing ASAP

Serielcheat - really? The solicitor would have a field day would he? bollocks. And as for social services viewing the situation as child abandonment, simply not the case. She's gone to work leaving responsible sensible well adjusted children in charge for a few hours.
Here, have a grip.

Polly

Op won't be laughing when / if a letter from her husband's solicitor drops on to her doormat......

Just trying to give the Op a ' heads up ' and in no way do I take the Ex's side, although I think he has a strong case.......

Your comment " it's laughable " illustrates to me, you've had little dealings with solicitors......

Op is safer with my advice rather than yours by a mile.....,,,

I left DS with the DD at that age. He was perfectly capable (he dealt with vomit just fine and didn’t ring me). I still remember the day they threw me out the pool because I had wee ones and they said he couldn’t supervise them in the baby pool when he was a couple of weeks of 16. All 6ft2 of him that can swim better than me. They made me leave the big pool where I was swimming my first length. And go back to the baby pool with the wee ones.

It totally depends on the kids - DS was, and is, mr sensible and I could trust him totally with the wee ones. DD1 is a whole other ball game and 18 is less sensible than he was at 8.