He won't give back the children

[Witchofthenorth]

Hi all, this might be long so apologies but I don’t want to drip feed.

STBXH has contact with the children once a fortnight for a whole weekend. This time though he asked if he could have them for the week as it’s school holidays here, which was no problem. I don’t have issue with him seeing the kids whenever he likes, within reason due to school and things. We live 50 miles away from him and the kids schools are in a different local authority.

Anyway, last week, the kids were off and I was working for a few days. I left my very capable 14, nearly 15yr old son and 13 year old daughter in charge of their younger siblings who are 9 and 6.

The older two have been left alone before and have had some times where they have looked after the younger two prior to this. When I’ve had to go to the shops or doctors appointments and such. So this wasn’t something sprung on them but it was for longer than before.

They know what to do in an emergency, have neighbours they can go to and had my number if they needed. I would have came home immediately if I had to. I also left some chores for them, hoovering, load the dishwasher and my oldest had the grass to cut.

Last night STBXH called me and went mad down the phone, in front of my older two, who I have since found out are a bit shook up at how their father spoke to me, shouting the odds about how it was wrong of me to leave them, the older two should only be on their own for minutes, not hours and the younger two shouldn’t be looked after by their older siblings. I am a bad mother, the kids don’t have a life, they should be playing and that I was neglectful in leaving them and I should have them taken from me.

He has now said that the kids are staying with him next week and the week after (schools go back Monday) and I’m terrified he won’t bring them back. He said he is going to fight for custody and I am so scared. I want my children back. I was speaking to my oldest and he wants to come home but is scared to tell his father. I have told STBXH that the kids come back Friday as planned but I don’t think he is moving on his decision.

Need some hand holding please. I don’t think I was wrong in what I did but I am now doubting myself. My kids are good kids, sensible and level headed. I’ve been trying to teach the how to become functioning adults (the older two anyway) and in some respects I treat then as young adults, teaching them to cook, use an iron, use the washing machine etc. He doesn’t see any of this and wants them to be wrapped in cotton wool forever.

What the fuck am I going to do?

I have to head out for a while and try and sort this out. I do appreciate all of your input, and am taking on board all comments. Will catch up with them soon. Thank you ladies.

So they'll be missing school indefinitely? He hasn't really thought this through has he?

OK I'm honest I don't think you did a thing wrong.

Get legal advice now, because it will help you calm down, but don't rush to initiate anything or panic. Just keep up normal relaxed contact with your kids and as far as you can with your ex. Let the situation settle down.

He's a bullying dick who is trying to frighten you. However, get legal and SS advice so everything is in place, and then you can involve the police if he refuses to return the children.

There's nothing wrong with two teenagers looking after a 9 year old and 6 year old - they don't exactly need a lot of looking after at that age, just keeping an eye on them.

Get legal advice and talk to the school because I am pretty sure they will not be alright with him keeping them off school - maybe the school would involve SS?

If the 9yr old and 6yr old are fairly sensible too, then there is no reason the older two can't look after them. If they have back up available for any problems that crop up, then why not.

If a 14 year can babysit at night in an unfamiliar house, then surely they can by day in their own home!

If your children bully each other, are inclined to overly adventurous behaviour, or have EBD then there's an issue. If not, sounds ok to me.

Tbh, I would have been seriously unhappy about this if I were in your ex's position. A 9yo is arguable (though I think I wouldn't have done it), but a 14 and 13yo are categorically not old enough to take responsibility for a 6yo for a whole day. They're really only just old enough to be left alone for the day themselves. (I've a 12 and 10yo and the max I'm comfortable leaving them for is a couple of hours. Can imagine I might go up to half a day in a year or so's time).

It goes without saying that your ex's response is unreasonable, he can't keep them off school and I barely think he will sustain the current non-arrangement long-term. I think he's upset and trying to upset you back. However, you're certainly not wrong to get legal advice and I would be prepared in your shoes for a bit of a rough time over the leaving them alone, and to undertake that it won't happen like that again.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what you did. My parents left me on my own from age 11 onwards and nothing happened to me except i ate too many sweeties unsupervised

You are not wrong, you are using your best judgement. This is not neglect or abuse, it's a difference of opinion. He should bring or send kids back as planned. They are with ordinarily resident with you as status quo, go and fetch them with police if needed. Don't let him get in first. If he wants custody or joint care he must go though court and have school place set up.
If it comes to it children's views will be sought. Get emergency residence order. Social services can liaise with his area but doubt they will give this the time of day. Cheeky fucker, can his new partner or another family member make him settle down? Sounds like mediation in longer term. There are going to be disputes and you need to feel safe in working these out as coparents.

From his point of view, you left five children on their own for several days. I would be uncomfortable with that too unless it was half an hour here or there.

They're really only just old enough to be left alone for the day themselves

Maybe if they've been raised in a way that doesn't teach them to look after themselves. My 6 year old can look after herself for a couple of hours with no problems - by teenage years I'd definitely expect her to be able to look after herself all day and look after a younger sibling (past pre-school age - younger than that is much more work).

I actually think there might be a silver lining to this - your exP sounds like he's woken up and had a realisation of how impossible it is for you to do childcare and work when the children are not at school. Maybe there is an opportunity here to get him to step up and help out a bit more - having the kids once a fortnight is not really shouldering his end of the bargain.

I would seek legal advice, but I'd also be perhaps talking to him about how impossible it is being a lone parent and working during school holidays, and asking whether a better bargain can be struck.

Of course a nearly 15 year old can babysit a couple of younger siblings, he's being ridiculous. Hope you can get this sorted ASAP. Many 14/15 year olds get paid do this for other families.

My two can look after themselves perfectly well, thanks :) I just believe that there are (or should be) limits to the responsibility a person that young should have to carry. A whole working day plus travel is a long time. Think how many threads we see on here with people moaning that they're exhausted from looking after their dc (incl primary age ones) all day. It's unfair and, tbh, risky to co-opt young teenagers to carry that responsibility for that period of time (particularly if they themselves don't really want to). (To be clear, the risk comes not from the lack of capability per se, but from the lack of maturity and ability to see components to a situation that would occur to most adults practised in parenting).

But yes, quite why what is actually the parents' (plural) responsibility is being devolved to the children is a question the OP's ex should be asking himself, rather than getting all aerated and pulling the children out of school.

I just believe that there are (or should be) limits to the responsibility a person that young should have to carry

Well I agree with that but sometimes needs must, and everyone in the family needs to pull their weight so if, on occasion (not regularly - regularly would be too much responsibility for them, I agree), older siblings need to look after younger siblings for the day then that shouldn't be an issue.

Four children not five. The eldest is nearly fifteen. Nine can be quite sensible, so that leaves 13 looking after 6. No problem.

It's true a six year old may be mature enough to leave alone (better than with another 6yo) for short while. Safe to play or watch tv if not too naughty, but what if there is a fire or she is taken ill? So long as you have plans to cover that..

In that situation,my dh would responded in exactly the same way yours did..I've 4 kids too,my eldest are nearly adults ,just hitting 20. But I've never left the youngest with them,as it's not their job...that's not helpful for you thou..try going round to your ex to talk things throu ,involve the police if you have to

I would also be uncomfortable with the way you did it - however, it's far from being the worst parenting choice in the world, and is far below the level where I'd expect social services to get seriously involved. So speak to them and get legal advice and then you can dispute his plans from firmer ground.

What is the usual pattern of time the kids spend with each of you? I assume this is agreed between you rather than having gone to court? As a pp said this might be something that you can turn into an opportunity to get him to step up. Do you live near each other?

STBXH is hardly a midweek parent oyster keeping a nearly 15yo off school for 2 weeks (GCSEs?). To be honest, around here keeping kids off school for 2 weeks would get you into a lot of trouble, possibly more than a teen looking after a 6yo. I would email him that you are not happy about him keeping the kids off school asap so you have that written down. But if he does, it will really help you out. Also let the kids stay a while in a house with 7 kids. They will be begging to come home which will also help you. I know the next 2 weeks will be hard but it may help things longer term.

Sorry typos. He is hardly a PERFECT parent

I think leaving the kids alone is a red herring. You need to get legal advice and get the kids back asap. He can't just take them and not send them to school.

This website recommends calling the police. They may not be able to do anything but worth a call anyway.

www.childsupportlaws.co.uk/what-rights-does-ex-have-with-regards-our-children.html

I thank god for parents like you. Responsible adults who see that treating young adults as such will help them grow. Two older looking after two younger is fine. Chores are fine. Unless it's an industrial sized lawn mower it's also fine to expect them to manage to use one. If your husband does not bring the kids back as agreed call the police. Call social services now and advise he's planning to abduct them.

I wouldn't be happy with it.

Presumably he couldn't have them whilst you worked?

That said, although perhaps ill advised & might be best not to do it again, that doesn't mean that he gets to not return them & keep them off school, does it?