Meanwhile over on Gransnet....

[ChocolatePHD]

While bored earlier I popped over to gransnet to see what that's all about. Stumbled across the forums and noticed that a lot of the threads are about being estranged from their dc and slagging off the 'evil' children/ in laws who are keeping them from their grandchildren, and how heartbroken they are etc.

I found that v interesting considering how we here often discuss the other side of that- those of us who can't cope with our parents any longer or struggle with them, and either go NC or LC. And that never happens without good reason- it takes a lot for someone to get to that point in my experience.

It was kind of jarring but also interesting to read the gransnet side of things- but also frustrating as someone whose mother thinks of herself as a butter wouldn't melt type, but has actually caused a lot of damage.

Has anyone else read it/ had any thoughts on this?

"What are you getting at Bertrand? Are you saying we should excuse abusive behaviour from parents and consider their emotions and feelings instead?!"
ABSOLUTELY not. I am saying that posts like "Oh I've seen it too. Lots of ego stroking and pathetically trembling lips, and not understanding whyyyyy" do not seem to countenance the suggestion that there might be two sides to the story.

I am sure my so-called mother is on there. Getting sympathy for how her awful daughter has cut her off from her grandchildren, stolen her best friends etc. And she’s very convincing in real life so I’ve no doubt she’ll be so there.

The other side of the story is she’s an extreme narc. Physically abusive to my DB and I growing up and extremely emotionally abusive. When I emailed and told her I was in long term trauma therapy and have PTSD in part because of her actions, SHE cut contact in a reply. Then a few months later, after no more contact emailed to say I’d cut contact. She’s never mentioned the kids to me but tells everyone I’m stopping her seeing them.

Her friends have started seeing her true colours after she has been emotionally blackmailing them if they’ve talked to me or she’s gone into a narc rage on them. They want nothing more to do with her.

But I absolutely guarantee not a single letter if that will be discussed.

And that’s ok really. We all need to feel ok about ourselves and if someone is so horrible to people in RL that they alienate themselves then thank goodness they can get their delusions supported online - because that sort of person never changes. It’s better that someone makes them feel justified in their warped version of reality than they become more bitter and wreak more havoc on the lives of the rest of us!!!

Bella 99% of people on that thread were supportive. I assume you are talking about the one person that defended the actions in the OP's posts?

Same thing happens on MN. We all bring our own experiences.

Oh god you'd be wise to stay away from there. I fell down a rabbit hole of oddness and ended up reading those "estranged and hard done by" threads. They don't see anything they could possibly have done wrong, especially when it comes to their grandchildren and their "rights". It's actually quite disturbing to see behind the scenes of emotionally abusive people and how they justify it.

I think anyone who isn't prepared to consider the possibility of rights and wrongs on both sides should avoid mil/dil/m/d threads on there and on here. Unless you're looking for an echo chamber. In both places.

Many of the posters on GN certainly do not ever consider that they themselves have done anything wrong and have no idea whatsoever why they are estranged from their family members. Those posters are batshit. And they know full well why they are estranged.

There was a thread a while ago where a MN poster discussed some really chilling discussion she had found in a FB estranged parents forum.

It turned into a really interesting discussion, but at some point the Gransnet people found it, assumed it was about them (it wasn't) started their own GN thread/s about it, while also intermittently piling into the MN ones. The commentary made it blindingly obvious why their adult children had chosen to cut off from them, but they were completely incapable of seeing it themselves.

I'll dig it out...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2635217-This-is-really-chilling-I-think

I find the support to people leaving their abusive partners on here extremely encouraging and warming, but I have to admit I find the enthusiastic cheering on of people going no contact with parents and in-laws more troubling.

My BIL and his wife have gone no contact with my PILs on a few occasions. I'm sure their stated reasons - always being put last in the family, parents only helping with the grandchildren when they want to- are the kind of things that sound v reasonable. Except having witnessed it as an outsider, they're all entirely fictional.

They refused to speak to PIL for a month when they rang up to ask them to take the children for a weekend and PIL had already booked a holiday that week. Apparently good grandparents should check if they're needed for babysitting first. Despite the fact that PIL were happy to take them at any other time, and BIL and SIL had no limitations on when they could go on holiday but had just spotted a good deal.

They're incredibly entitled- all the examples are too specific but despite being a high earner and SAHM they expect retired PIL to provide huge amounts of help and money, pay for holidays, etc. They are emotionally abusive - I think it's gas lighting: PIL can't decline babysitting or a loan or anything really or they will take offence and disappear.

Sometimes when I read the 'my mother in law is so awful' threads, i do hear them in my SILs voice. My PIL are incredibly respectful and kind, and it's awful seeing them go through this intermittent estrangement for years. I don't imagine they would post on gransnet, and it's possible if they did they would sound delusional- why would children cut off loving and supportive parents with no reason? - but in that case, they would absolutely be telling the truth.

@ Textpectation
"Bella 99% of people on that thread were supportive. I assume you are talking about the one person that defended the actions in the OP's posts?"

Where was I having a go at those who replied? I said "oh dear" and gave a link to a thread? Is this a wind up?

I think the OP on there isn't all she seems. Mil allegedly taking a baby out of a house without telling the parents?

"I’ve chosen to post here instead of mumsnet as I’m hoping to avoid this turning into a huge anti mil thread. "

My MIL was a treasure. My own mother was an abusive alcoholic.
I'm also a gran, a mum and a full time carer for two very young children. Hope that helps.

Bella,

I agree. I also thought the OP on the GN thread was some sort of a troll. The post just seemed to lack credibility.

This is very interesting.
After years of being scapegoated, and badly treated by our mum and stepdad, my sister has withdrawn from their lives. ( my mum did a strange dance where I could do nothing wrong, and my sister could do nothing right . she also worked hard to keep us separate. It didn't work, and we are close).
I refused to be in the middle, but my mum gets the occasional trembling lip complaint in, including saying last time I saw her that she had "wracked her brains" and couldn't see what she had done wrong.
The level of denial is gobsmacking.
A psychologist friend sent me a link about narcissistic personality disorder, and she ticks lots of boxes.
Is NPD hugely prevalent? Can they all be narcissistic?

Is NPD hugely prevalent? Can they all be narcissistic?

It's my belief that up until fairly recently, parenting was an outlet for many people to indulge that part of their personality that remains narcissistic. Everyone's a little bit NPD - there is a time in childhood when you must go through a period of extreme narcissism as part of a journey towards full psychological development - and that little bit of NPD will take root and flourish in parts of one's life that remain unlooked at / uninterrogated.

For many people, it's their status as parent that is the last part of their life that is taken completely as gospel with no questions asked about what they expect from it. So it can turn horrifically entitled (NPDish) at the drop of a hat.

E.g. my mother truly believes that as a daughter, I should "honour" her as mother.
Even if she is behaving like a child - doesn't matter - she's the mother and is therefore to be treated with kid gloves.

Just as she treated her own mother with kid gloves. My DGM made decisions for her DDs that today would be considered frankly criminal and massively immoral... but my mother blatantly ignores this and will not let anyone say that DGM should have behaved better. (Because... if DGM should have behaved better... that might mean that she should also have behaved better... because she made decisions very similar to her own DM's... because she refused to examine anything in her childhood too closely and therefore simply repeated history... etc. etc.)

My DM now wants the same treatment from me, it's her time to be paid back for the pain she suffered by "honouring" her own mother. When I don't play ball, DM definitely gets the hump. She would say I am "ungrateful", "cold", "unfeeling", "selfish". I guess I am.

But I was exposed to dramatically different ideas than my DM was growing up... mostly because my DM put on airs and sent me to expensive schools... where I was exposed to ideas (like feminism) that led me to behavior that she now hates... funny that

Beesandknees- -out of interest, when, in your opinion, did feminism "start"?

Not sure it is really possible to answer that question without a big socio cultural discussion.

In my home country (where my DM still lives), the sexual revolution didn't happen and feminism is something that is barely understood beyond things like women being allowed to vote, and maybe work, but only while they also do all the housework, mind.

Ideas like "maybe women aren't responsible for the feelings of everyone else in their family" (for example) are mostly met with this look , unless you are the top 1% in terms of education.

I asked because I found your last post extraordinarily offensive to older women. But the idea that the current generation knows it all and is the first generation so to do is not new. Plato mentioned it........

I'm sorry that I struck a nerve.

I do have different ideas to my mother, that's natural, we are of different generations. Every generation has ideas that supplant those of the last. These differences often cause division and pain, it can't be escaped.

That's human nature. Dialectical materialism, etc. etc.

What kind of approach would you prefer I have? Should I take on the mantle my mother offers me, button my lip and become a little more like her?

What I've preferred so far is to take the brunt of her disapproval, break the chain of entitlement and hope that my DC don't ever feel that I expect them to make the same choices and feel the same feelings as me. I figure someone has to suffer somewhere along the line and I'd prefer it were me and my mother, vs. my DC.

It hurts to be rejected and judged by my mother - I take solace that by accepting that pain, I might spare my DC the same.

Bella 'oh dear' isn't clear in the context of ChocolatePHD's first post on this thread, so your clarification is a little more helpful. I asked a question. One of the posters on your thread swam against the tide and defended the (seemingly) undefendable. I wasn't commenting on the credibility of the OP on your thread, suggesting that you were having a go or implying anything about your relationships.

@Textpectation but I haven't got a thread, I flagged one up on THIS thread ( where I am not the OP) from Gransnet (where I am not a member). Suggest we leave this one. I regret the fact that you do not find my writing clear enough.

Bachingupthewrongtree thanks for the reply and spotting it. A dodgy OP on a Gransnet thread.
I'm not a member there so could not flag it up to their mods.
I hope that someone spots it over there. The OP name is a bit of a piss take on MN members as in...."Vanillasoylatte" .

Someone with Bach in their user name would be good at spotting Inventions hey?

I really do detest trolls. It saddens me when decent people do their best to help support some eejit hiding behind a screen..

By your thread I meant the one you'd linked. I know you are not this op of this thread or the one you linked to. "Oh dear" wasn't clear at to me so I asked a question. Oh well.

Bertrand, if you're going to quote me, at least go back and read my post properly.
I obviously touched a nerve with you. However if you'd actually read my post,
I acknowledged some of the Gransnet posters probably weren't at fault, but that I could easily spot the ones where there was more to the story. Which I can. They are usually the ones lamenting that evil DIL won't let them have the newborn grandchild for the weekend.

"I acknowledged some of the Gransnet posters probably weren't at fault" Love a grudging concession! I reckon it's 50/50. Not "some""probably". And again@ "touched a nerve" I've no skin in this game. I just think that automatic assumptions of guilt or innocence based on prejudice are wrong. And i don't think a man's relationship with his mother or children's relationship with their grandmother (obviously setting aside abuse) should be mediated through his wife or their mother.

I'm not prejudiced. I have great relationships with both my MIL and my own mum.

It's not too difficult to read between the lines with many of the GN posts. Have you read the threads in question? Because you certainly didn't read my initial post properly. You picked out a sentence or two to use as a handy soundbite. I never once implied that all the GN posters were at fault. Carry on though.

@BertrandRussell

You make good points.

MN by its very nature will be skewed towards the DiL/Daughter and GN to the Grandparents - that's obvious.

I do find it interesting as a GM and a mother and MiL on here. I remember being accused in the past of always supporting the GM or MiL, but I just call it as I see it, like everyone else.

The daughter/DiL isn't always right and the mother/MiL isn't always wrong. And I'm not talking about the horror stories, just the normal day-to-day disagreements.

"I never once implied that all the GN posters were at fault. Carry on though."

No. You said that "some" "probably" weren't at fault. That's a rather strange way of expressing 50%.....

Bees I think you make some very good points. I do think that there is a tendency amongst some DMs/Mils that they had to placate previous generations and now it is their turn to be placated. I also think that your point regarding feminism is pertinent.

Some older feminist mothers deem their daughters "not good enough feminists/daughters/mothers* and berate them for putting themselves first when they need to. This is a tragedy.