Would really really appreciate some advice...

[5Wilf5]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice if possible please. I apologise in advance if this is a long post but I need to get my feelings out.

I am a 41 year old guy, been with my wife since age of 22 - married for 10 years. 2 gorgeous children aged 5 and 3.

Ever since we got together the physical side of our relationship has been poor, and that's being polite. I estimate we have had sex less than 20 times in 20 years, and that takes in the times it took to conceive two children. I am a physical person, I love the thought of being intimate and close with someone, my wife is the opposite - she is cold and I think she feels awkward in intimate situations. I don't blame her for this, her parents are the worst union of two people it's possible to imagine, and they ultimately got divorced after 35 years of marriage.

Any form of closeness between us over the years has been virtually absent, very limited holding hands, hugging, no cuddling up on the sofa enjoying a glass of wine etc. As I sit here and write this I cant even remember the last time she smiled at me, let alone laughed.

In 2012 I started having an affair with someone we both know (shitty I know, I'm sorry). The sense of excitement for both of us was off the scale - she was in a not great relationship too, also with two kids. We were both quite measured about it at first - it was just an affair we were enjoying, we were not going to do anything to endanger our marriages, specifically our children.

Time went on and we became much much closer, after about 2 years I realised I really loved this person and, although she never told me how she felt, I know she had very strong feelings for me.

Ultimately, sadly, we split up circa August '16 due to the fact that she was terrified that if her husband found out he would go for custody of their children. So she is carrying on with her marriage for the sake of keeping her family unit together, and I respect her for that.

Just before Christmas last year guilt and sheer frustration finally got the better of me and I told my wife what had been going on between me and the other woman. For a couple of hours my wife was devastated, then seemingly returned to normal. We carry on now as if nothing had ever happened, my wife still even chats to the other woman via text and if they see each other at school. I can't get my head round that at all to be honest.

So now I am left in a situation where I am not in love with my wife, I'm not father of the year but I adore my boys, and yet I've remembered how wonderful it is to have a close relationship with somebody.

What do I do? Leave and go and live in a flat, hoping that I might meet someone and the psychological damage to my children isn't too bad? Stick with it at home, hoping things might just get better? The thought of not having a real relationship with anyone for the rest of my life makes me feel physically sick.

I'd really appreciate anyone's help, at times I've been so low and felt so trapped I've been nearly suicidal.

Thank you

I hope everyone who has just had a go at you has carefully read all the messages, including each one of yours. You chose to post on mumsnet, not a male forum. Props for that. I think it might be a bit too easy/knee-jerky for some of us mumsnetters to judge you, because not everyone understands the loneliness of a sexless/non-intimate marriage, and you're getting a bit slammed for the affair by people who haven't come to that place themselves.

I think your affair sounds typical of a conflicted, awful situation, including the ending it a few times, going back to it because it was better than nothing, and getting it ended finally for you by OW because you are indecisive, and yes, a bit weak. Who can say they aren't weak sometimes?

The affair wasn't just about sex for you, it was about emotional intimacy, which you are missing as much as sex (if not more so). Obviously, the two are connected.

So I'm trying to say your heartfelt messages, your replies, your desire to see other women's perspectives, and your honesty suggest to me you're a decent guy and I don't think you deserve the harsh replies you've got and may keep getting. But keep reading and learning.

FWIW I don't see any easy answer for you. But I absolutely 100% would seek help via therapy individually and together. Find the money and find the time.

And as someone who has read every message, I hope that everyone here starts posting on every single thread from now on about affairs with the exact same attitude.

"Your poor husband/wife probably felt neglected, bless their cotton socks, who hasn't felt lonely? Don't be hard on them!"

It is so hard to understand what constant and prolonged rejection does. Having to make choices between your happiness and fufilement and not wanting to further damage a damaged person doesn't make you terrible in my book. Making mistakes is a very human trait, especially when you are hurt and confused. I am not advocating for affairs but sometimes they are part of the process of moving on and making change. Try a couple of years without sex and a whole heap of rejection and then say no when someone shows you some affection ....it isn't easy, it isnt pretty, but I have no idea what kicking the OP would achieve!

If you don't think your wife would have a problem with it then why the hell would you rule out an open relationship??! It sounds like the obvious solution to me. Do some reading around the subject and try and be a bit more open minded, if both parties are genuinely truthful and respectful of each other and everyone is fully on board it can be a great option for people in relationships such as yours.

I'm amazed you would disregard the idea without at least discussing it with your wife.

But the relationship in question wasn't one where one person suddenly turned round and didn't want sex any more. (Not that that excuses an affair anyway.) OP got married knowing the score, and then changed his mind some years on.

And neither is the affair in question a ONS. It lasted four years and included a period when he decided to have another child with his wife. And it was with someone known to the family, which everyone knows almost always ends in a shit show of recrimination, and gossip from mutual aquaintances.
I don't think there is any excuse for extra-martial affairs, but particularly long-term ones, during which time there is still sex with a spouse.

You cheated for years, but you would not consider having an open relationship? An open relationship is essentially cheating but with your partner's blessing.

You don't have to end things and immediately dash off to a bedsit. You could continue to house-share with your dc's until you have saved enough to enable you to move on more comfortably.

And as someone who has read every message, I hope that everyone here starts posting on every single thread from now on about affairs with the exact same attitude.

On this forum there is always the element of how the Op phrases themselves. Two people could post about the exact same issue but one of them could frame it in a way that elicits empathy and well thought out responses, and another could get peoples backs up immediately and have to abandon the thread. It's not a M/F issue - I've seen plenty of men posting about sexless marriages who got ripped to bits!

I don't think op sounds like someone who will carry on having affairs. He just sounds desperately lonely and seems utterly lost about what to do
Bullshit. He carried on an affair for years and only stopped when he got dumped. Everything he has posted has been about how difficult he would find it to break up. That makes it really hard for me to sympathise, really. And I guess I'm one of those haters, OP, because guess what? I hate cheating bastards. Especially ones who show no remorse and only think about themselves. Your poor wife.

So I'm trying to say your heartfelt messages, your replies, your desire to see other women's perspectives, and your honesty suggest to me you're a decent guy
Sorry, don't agree. His heartfelt messages are about how difficult he is finding it, he disagrees or ignores the women's perspectives which aren't sympathetic to his views, doesn't reply telling us about all the things he has done over the years to work on the relationship with his wife - maybe because he hasn't bothered to try and fix it, being busy shagging (or at least laughing with) the ow. Not what I would expect from a decent guy. He may be. But definitely doesn't come across as one from this thread.

Right - a massive thank you to people have replied, it really does mean a lot. Tbh this is helping just getting all of this out of my head and down on paper. Thank you again.

I am in no way trying to defend my affair (I promise you I know it is wrong) but I do wonder if some people realise what it is like to be in a loveless marriage for a prolonged period. I will try to explain myself:

Between 2002 and 2010 my wife and I had sex precisely zero times. In 2007 we had a fabulous honeymoon in the US, where there was no intimacy between us whatsoever. None. Nothing. Nada. To make matters worse we are both fit and good looking. The other day I saw her black knickers under her jeans and I thought to myself 'wow I really fancy you' and then in my head I was laughing at the thought of jumping into bed with my wife. Sad isn't it.

By about 2008/9 I had literally forgotten what it was like to be physically close to a woman, the smell of wet hair, the touch of skin on skin, the sight of the female body.

In 2010 a switch went off in my wife's brain and she came home from work one day and announced that she wanted children. 'So we'll need to start having sex then' she declared in the same way you might say 'can you nip down the shops we're out of milk'

Trying to conceive was an extremely unpleasant time for both of us. I struggled to get hard, she was very awkward. If you'll forgive my explicitness - during the act of sex my wife seems not to want me inside her. To make matters worse she miscarried after a couple of months which brought added pressure, stress, and heartache. Ultimately we did manage it and had our gorgeous older boy in 2011, thanks be to God.

You can understand hopefully that those eight or so years of nothing, and then a stressful unhappy experience of trying to conceive left me a bit downbeat, to say the least. So when I met my wife's friend and we immediately clicked - almost instantly she was relaxed with me and that made me relaxed, plus she almost immediately started taking the piss out of me which I always think is a good sign. When I finally found the nerve to kiss her and she kissed me back (I am in tears writing this) it was literally like somebody had injected a shot of adrenaline into my arm. I cannot in no way describe how special and wonderful it made me feel, to feel her body next to me, to have a laugh and a joke and be positive about life. To have that so so necessary confidence boost. It was just, ah, incredible :( I miss her and our relationship to this day and I have no regrets whatsoever about saying that. So bring it on @somerville

So, you are probably thinking, why the hell did I not just pack my bags in say 2003 and get out. With hindsight maybe I should have done, but I stayed for so many years because my wife is one of the most beautiful, innocent, hopelessly naive, under-confident, trusting people it's possible to meet. Really in this modern world people like her do not exist. Or not in my experience anyway. I don't believe for one moment that she thought all the whatsapps that were being exchanged between me and OW were anything other than good natured. Some of you are probably thinking she must be thick, but really it's that sort of thing that makes me love her all the more. I would/and will worry horribly about her if/when I am not here.

And to summarise my current position - at the age of 41 I have turned into a miserable bad tempered old git who seems to be drinking more and more. I spent the few days before Christmas looking at lostallhope.com and planning, when my wife insisted I get help from the doctor with depression but I couldn't get in the sodding place because I was in tears in the car park. I really do try with my children but I am the authority figure I am often too short with them (there again is the reason I probably will move out)

I am in a better place now but this does need sorting one way or another, thanks again for all your help and advice - this is the last post I can write as I am away all week with work. Unfortunately I've got a manic May with work, I fully intend to talk to my wife but, having thought about it, don't want to do it until I am around for a while again - which means June.

Thanks again to all

Sad story OP, I mean this helpfully - you are still putting the decision to make a change off, and probably will just continue to do so. If you mentioned it to your wife before you went, she wouldn't be blindsided and would have space from you to go through things in her head, at her own pace, and be able to make her own best decision. I do truly think that would be kindest.

Ah, I'm sorry OP. You've acted shittily, and made bad decisions, but we are all of us human.

I don't quite understand what connection you have with your wife that led you both to marry - not sexual, not emotional (you say you're lonely and have been fur a long time, and of course neither of you tried to sort out the sex stuff which would have been the emotionally healthy thing to do before attempting to have kids together) so why did you marry? What kept you together?

If it's just as good friends, perhaps you can still coparent well if you separate and have a functional good relationship for your DC. But you should both attend therapy individually, and couples counselling together, as you both sound emotionally stunted somehow, and you need to move forward.

Don't know why you're calling me out like that. Plenty of other posters have expressed similar opinions to me about your lack of integrity. (And as for calling me out at the end of a rant about your loss when the OW dumped you.... pffft.)

I'm extremely confused by your varied descriptions of your wife throughout this thread. And suffice to say, you are not taking care of her by sleeping with her friends.

Whatever anyone thinks of your conduct, virtually everyone has said you should end your marriage. Take from that what you will.

"You can understand hopefully that those eight or so years of nothing, and then a stressful unhappy experience of trying to conceive left me a bit downbeat, to say the least. "

Did you never, this whole time, talk to her about how unhappy you were?

And no, I still don't see how this justified a lengthy affair. Awful though it is to be deprived of a female body that long

@somerville I'm sorry for calling you out, I get a bit frustrated when a number of people have implied I am only in this position because I can't keep my dick in my trousers. It's not like that, I am not like that

@alonsypot no in those days I don't think we did, there is no intimacy, not much laughter or meaningful connection but we get on well as two people. Think brother/sister and you're there.

Red your most recent post. That's not a healthy relationship. Move on, and be the best parent you can be without being in this non-marriage.

Might also be worth having some therapy or counselling to explore your own approach to relationships. I find it mind boggling that a non-asexual person could marry someone with whom they haven't had sex for years (unless there are medical or trauma issues). Worth examining this before you seek another relationship.

You can't live your life feeling this unwanted forever. Explain to your wife that you need to feel wanted both physically and emotionally. It doesn't sound like she's willing or able to work on the reasons she has such trouble with intimacy so it sounds like it's never going to be enough for you. Your children will be far happier with two happy parents.

Also...my auntie and uncle stayed together despite an affair for the sake of their children, only breaking up when the children were 'old enough' (very late teens) It ruined them! Younger children are resilient!

Thank you thank you

I get a bit frustrated when a number of people have implied I am only in this position because I can't keep my dick in my trousers. It's not like that, I am not like that
But you didn't keep your dick in your trousers. So you are like that.
Many years of not sorting out an unhappy relationship (at least on your side) does not give you special dispensation to cheat. You're still looking for ppl to forgive you.

I have laughter and 'meaningful connection' with my sister - you really can't settle for "getting on ok" as a basis for marriage and having children. Please explore counselling.

Yy Fritz, completely.

5 - Really? Ten years and you never once said "shall we..." "are you in the mood?" or anything? You never once initiated, seemed sad or rejected to her? You had no discernible human emotions between the two of you, no communication verbal or non-verbal?

I mean, if you say so, but I find that hard to believe.

On that basis, since she's clearly an automaton with no discernible emotions towards you or form of empathy or understanding (yet still a fantastic mum) I don't see why you'd have to wait a month.

Just send her the link to this thread, say you want to split up, give her alone time to think about things logically, and then rationally discuss things on a certain date.

(Or just spring it on her and tell her forcibly it wasn't your fault you had an affair, people on Mumsnet have agreed - either way).

And then for gods sake look into therapy for your kids, because you will have done a nice little number on them with this bizarre role-play relationship without any form of affection in it and lots of cheating.

Were you virgins when you got married? Im struggling to imagine anyone who is only 40s to have dated for 5 years before marriage ans not had sex. I know kiterally one person who was a virgin on her wedding day.

I think other people must have very straightforward relationships, and know very straightforward people.

I don't find his description unlikely at all.

There are people with ASD who want companionship, but find the sensory side of sex unpleasant.

People who have been abused, emotionally or sexually, who want support and companionship but find deeper intimacy terrifying.

You can fall for someone and think 'they are nervous/shy/inexperienced, it will come'.

You can feel completely attached to someone who does not meet your needs, but feel unable to leave. You don't bring it up after a while because that would be coercive and pushy and unkind.

Those of you with straightforward lives and relationships have perhaps been fortunate in being able to achieve them.

Arf at straightforward lives. Does anyone?! Relationships take hard work - love is a verb, and all that.

If OP was writing this having not had an affair I would think he needs support in how to go about trying to initiate counselling, and if his DW didn't want to, or if that was unsuccessful, how to leave, if that's what he still wanted.

But he had the time and emotional capital to not just have a very long affair, but to hide it from his wife. For years. He could have used that time and emotional capital to try to improve things - or end - his marriage. He chose not to.

OP has discovered that the old idiom that cheats never prosper is true, and personally the main people I truly feel sorry for here are his DC, and those of the OW.

Yeah, my life is so straightforward, it's amazing. I talk to people and they ... reply.

If only everyone could have this magical lifestyle, perhaps I could write a book?