Listing where I want our relationship to be

[HarmlessChap]

I've made a list of objectives of what I think a happy and healthy relationship should be.

The bullet points of which are:-
Kindness
Friendship
Unprompted affection and declarations of love
Physical contact
Regular sex.

This is primarily to focus my mind and give myself some clarity on where I want our relationship to get to and I've gone into detail of how I define each point and where I see we are currently, but no suggestions of how to achieve it.

Would you give such a list to your DP or do you think it would it come across as passive aggressive?

I'm thinking of giving it to her and asking her to do the same and give to me.

What incredibly wise words Kitter!
Good luck harmless - on your journey to be the best version of yourself!

Hi OP,

Sounds to me like you and your wife want different types of relationships. You can't force her to be who she wants you to be and vice versa.

Your list said it all, 'regular sex'. I'd interpret that as you saying you do not care if I wanted sex or not, as long as your needs are met. I know you said that is not what you meant from your other posts but to me that sang out clearly.

Stop flogging this dead horse. You and she are not on the same page and never will be.

Good luck.

OP, is your wife on The Pill, the Mirena Coil, or anti-depressants at all?

No, due to the awful time for both of us with her PND with both our DCs I didn't want any more children. When she started talking about a 3rd DC I said no and insisted on having the snip so no contraception was needed and she's been off anti depressants for over 12 years.

Things have moved on a bit in the last couple of days and although I still don't know what way its going it is clear that I shouldn't be making any hasty decisions.

How have things moved on? Good news..? I hope so. I really feel for both of you.

I couldn't say whether they are good or bad at this point.

Seems as though there is an expectation that I should just be aware that she fancies me and loves me despite not showing or saying it and my doubts are in my head, they are my problem, have no basis and something I need to deal with and get over.

She's told me that she has had some weight and body confidence issues as well, which she's never spoken to me about before, but they are improving. Personally I don't give a toss about her weight or wobbles, but evidently she does.

The forced nature of showing affection is not the same as not wanting to or that its unpleasant, its just not something she feels comfortable doing but she is making a conscious effort to change her behaviour in that respect.

She tried to initiate sex yesterday, other than when we were TTC, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times she has done that in our marriage. I said no, I need to know that its an act of love and desire rather than one of desperation, but we agreed to do other things to work towards more closeness without sex before we move that way.

While it seems positive, I am wary. There is an element of gas lighting going on and I need to be convinced that we can repair the cracks rather than paper over them, hence not wanting to make hasty decisions.

You're not doing yourself any favours, OP. After going on at her about not initiating, you turn her down when she tries. And then give conditions for it....she did it out of desperation? What? You know that's what she was thinking?

Also the decision you made for the both of you (which doesn't sound as if it was actually discussed) about not wanting another child, so you took yourself off for the snip? I have some sympathy for your situation but the more you say, the more controlling you sound. Many women have body issues after having children, and if her pnd was so terrible, I'm not surprised she didn't want sex. If your dealing with this was on a par with your attempts to 'fix it', I'm not surprised it got to the point it did.

I hear what you are saying but I was clear weeks ago that sex is off the table for the moment until we've got a more fundamental underlying level of affection going. We are making progress, I think, but for me its still too soon, I still don't want sex to be part of the equation, not until I'm a lot more comfortable with everything, and you're right I don't know what she's thinking neither one way nor the other, which is part of the problem.

Last year when I said I was unhappy she made an effort for few months, we DTD a few times and she seemed to consider that a box ticked and then returned to her usual behaviour pattern, I don't want that to repeat itself.

You're reading a little much into a couple of line reply. 2 kids was always the plan so when she said she wanted a 3rd it was a big surprise and somewhat of a shock. PND was my No.1 issue but even without it I wasn't keen as financially and practically we would have struggled, not least of which was that we had relied quite heavily on my DS to help with child care while DW had PND and she was an absolute star and really there for us but I also knew she was looking forward to both my DCs heading off to school.

DW respected that I didn't want to try for another at that point but her attitude was "well we'll see what happens" so I decided that I should take responsibility for the contraception. It's my body so my choice I'm afraid, I didn't (and don't) want any more children. My decision was discussed at length (both with DW and GP) and once she accepted that DC3 was never going to be on the cards she agreed that it would be the most sensible and convenient option. That was over a decade ago.

It is becoming more and more apparent that communication is our major issue, both verbal and non verbal. Assuming everything that is being said to me now is 100% true, she hasn't communicated how she feels about me, she hasn't told me her insecurities, I've not communicated my insecurities and my feelings of rejection and I've allowed resentment to build.

Only time will tell as to whether we can rebuild the closeness and intimacy to such a level that we are both happy within the relationship, but we have a wonderful friendship to work from.

So far on this thread I've been described as controlling, manipulative, rapey and creepy, so if someone comes up with narcissist that would make a full house, LOL.

for me it's all too soon
All about you? Ooh, you narcissist!

All about you?

I doubt you would be suggesting to a female member that they should have sex even if they aren't feeling entirely comfortable with the situation to put their DP's needs or wants 1st.

Sorry, made a joke there following on from your last paragraph (hence the winking face). Obv didn't translate in the manner it was intended.

fwiw it was obvious it was a joke

Thx inthemood. Felt like a bit of a shit for a moment there...

Sorry I took it a little passive aggressively given that you had already said in the previous post that I did myself no favours by turning her down.

HC, you are better than sniping at posters for saying something very obviously lighthearted.

And the "reverse the sexes" trope is very tired

I think you are at the point where your relationship is ruining your life and making you into a person you don't want to be. Or at least that you are losing sight of it.

I have said this to you several times : it's ok to end your marriage. It's not working. Stop flogging a dead horse. The fact you turned down the sex she tried to initiate after every fucking thing you have said is actually gobsmacking.

Divorce is commonplace. You would just be another statistic. Nothing earth shattering about it. If all them, then why not you ?

No harm done.
I guess I was thinking that turning her down when she initiated would have damaged her self esteem (if that's the right word) , in the same way you had felt when you were turned down previously, which may have set back the rebuilding process. The narcissist bit was purely light-hearted response to your remark.

I turned her down because I've have a real struggle about coercion and consent at the moment, last year when we DTD I felt pretty shitty afterwards questioning myself about whether there was genuine consent.

My head is all over the place at the moment, I appreciate that it knocks self esteem to be turned down, as and when I'm ready I shall tell her that I'm ready when she is.

AF neither of us seems willing to give up just yet but I d get everything you are saying.

FD mia culpa, I apologise for sniping.

HC
if you are both not willing to divorce (yet) pls consider a truce ! a break

I would suggest also a break from posting here, get some head space, then get back to your threads and read them again. So much good advice has been given to you, but you appear to dismiss it or react to it.

Pls get some distance and read it back later

I understand why your turned down sex.

I think I would too if it had been offered by someone who didn't want me, but also seemed reluctant to end the relationship and when sex had been taken off the table.

So out of the blue, I might wonder if it was being 'offered' as part of the "making an effort" forced affection, rather than genuine desire. I think I'd probably turn it down rather than go ahead and then feel shitty about it afterwards. It's such a huge turn around.