Listing where I want our relationship to be

[HarmlessChap]

I've made a list of objectives of what I think a happy and healthy relationship should be.

The bullet points of which are:-
Kindness
Friendship
Unprompted affection and declarations of love
Physical contact
Regular sex.

This is primarily to focus my mind and give myself some clarity on where I want our relationship to get to and I've gone into detail of how I define each point and where I see we are currently, but no suggestions of how to achieve it.

Would you give such a list to your DP or do you think it would it come across as passive aggressive?

I'm thinking of giving it to her and asking her to do the same and give to me.

What makes you think you're a laughing stock?

The 1st page of responses are pretty clear

Seriously?

Reminds me of the guy with the spreadsheet

Ha! Good luck with that!

Bottom line, it's about sex isn't it.

Well it would be a good way to find out quickly that you weren't compatible with her.

Are you expecting your wife to sign this?

It's all so shallow and superficial.

Anyway message received and understood, ciao.

That was feedback. What did you post for? And my question was a genuine one. Are you expecting your wife to sign her agreement to these terms? I see now that you aren't.

Are you generally a sulky/huffy type as you have come across here? Because that really doesn't bode well for you presenting your wife with this list.

I didn't see anyone laughing at you. You got a lot of considered advice, in fact.

Since you are working hard together on issues one at a time then there seems little point handing over a list of other issues. Taking sex off the table so that she knows you're not being nice to her to try to get sex is often reccommended in situations like yours, and if that's where you're currently at then especially don't hand over a list that makes sex look like the ultimate goal (not intentionally, from the sounds of it).

Ha! Good luck with that!

You've taken that as me laughing at you. I'm not laughing at you but I'm sceptical that this is a tactic which would achieve anything on your list.

I presume after this amount of time of being in this unsatisfactory relationship that you have asked your partner what you can throw into the pot to improve your relationship? I'm presuming that that hasn't worked because either she couldn't find the solution or you couldn't achieve it. If that hasn't worked, a list isn't going to work. You can either endure it, ride it out hoping that it is a blip or move on.

But I haven't read any of your other threads. That's just based on what is here.

To be honest OP - the lack of sex in your relationship is a symptom of problems in your relationship, rather than a thing that can be addressed in isolation.
I do feel for you because I think from previous threads that you feel unloved in a number of ways.
You'd be better off asking about addressing your relationship problems that result in a lack of intimacy and affection (..and sex!) rather than starting with the most obvious symptom you'd most like to fix.

Sorry I'm clearly being over sensitive. I just saw it as a few helpful posts amongst a massive pisstake.

Its not supposed to be an agreement so no its not to be signed. Its supposed to be a definition of a healthy relationship as I see it. Not even a definition of what my ideal partner would be as one of the responses was.

Fun and laughter I have as part of friendship.

I'm not huffy or sulky, but I am sometimes withdrawn and trying not to show how sad I'm feeling so I guess it might appear as such.

But none the less the message is clear that a list is sad and unappealing. Which is a tad ironic.

I have already said that sex is off the table for the next few months partly to take that pressure out of the equation and partly as I don't believe that if we did there would be any genuine desire on her part and I have felt like she has done it to tick boxes, to keep me sweet, in the past.

I'm sorry to hear that you are finding this difficult. You did ask for feedback, my feeling was that it left me cold.
Clearly you are having trouble expressing yourself to her and her to you. Anyway sorry if we have made things worse 💐

I've not seen your other threads chap, have you been to counselling together at all?
I've come to the conclusion that trying to gain happiness through others ends in a let down. A relationship should just be a complement to an already whole person. If you've been flogging this so called dead horse for many a year, maybe it's just time to move on to the next stage in your life. I sympathise with you, I really do. I have a problem with letting go of things too. Best wishes.

I've just re-read all the responses and my initial post and I'm shaking I feel numb. Even those who's feedback was less forthright were clear how bad an idea it is so the fact that I thought it might be sensible is a pretty clear indicator of how wide of the mark I am. That's got to be playing a part in how unappealing I am to my DW.

I've got a lot of thinking to do to see what I can do to resolve that.

I try to make sure I pull my weight at home with the chores and the kids are both teenagers so childcare is more a taxi service and school support. We have joint finances which she manages. I've lost weight in the last year and try to stay well groomed, I try my best to make her feel good with gifts compliments and try to be supportive, but if I'm still just a bit of a prat none of that is going to help is it?

How is it an unprompted declaration if it comes from a list you've set out?!

I think when you get to the list making stage, it might be time to give up the ghost, sorry OP.

How is it an unprompted declaration if it comes from a list you've set out?!

Its not a request its a list of what I think a healthy relationship should contain it's my opinion of the relationship we should be striving for. A relationship where saying I love you is normal and natural and not always followed by the word "too"

What is your dw doing to try and save your marriage op? Serious question.

I'm sorry you feel gotten at here. You've always come across as a very nice and sensitive man on other threads. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Fwiw, I don't see anything wrong with your list, nor in wanting a healthy sex life.

I think that the problem with a list is that it just comes across as rather cold and calculated rather than warm and spontaneous. I do remember some of your previous posts, however, and you have always seemed thoughtful and reasonable, so I'm sorry if you feel under attack here.

It might work if you ask her to make a list, if she's happy to do so, before showing her your list.

Is she still not listening to your concerns, or showing any awareness of your feelings? (I hope I have that right from previous threads). Might be time to think about moving on, although I know it's very difficult to actually do.

I think it's fine to have a list for you. To have clear in your head what your expectations are and if they're not met then you can't continue. But yeah to share in a list format surely won't be met well.

What is your dw doing to try and save your marriage op? Serious question.
Well its baby steps, she's trying to remember to give me a hug or a kiss each day so that it will start to feel natural over time.

She's mostly sticking to that, and she has all but stopped pushing me away when I go to give her a hug.

We're doing date nights, having a cuddle on the sofa every so often.

Everything does feel very forced though, its quite apparent that she doesn't really see me in as her lover, more like a best friend or brother

Weren't you planning on presenting this to your wife though? Or have I misunderstood you?

I get that this should be part of a normal loving relationship - normally it is. I'm just questioning whether that is something you can achieve via a list of - what? Suggestions? Demands? Requirements? I don't think, even at the gentler end of this scale, it's going to result in the kind of spontaneous exclamations of love you're hoping for. Something in the asking.

I agree with PP - counselling seems like a good idea. I think you need some external input to stand a chance of making this work.

OP. I've read your previous thread (and comments elsewhere), and recall most of it seemed to be about what you wanted which she wasn't providing. Just to be clear, I'm not attacking you or saying you are unreasonable. But the Unprompted affection and declarations of love struck me as rather unfair and unlikely to last. The reason being from what you have said previously your wife has never been this kind of person, so why are you still trying to change her to act in a way which is not her natural response (and then blame her lack of effort /care when it doesn't happen)? She may express her affection in other ways which you are not picking up on. Has anyone suggested reading about love languages to you? I found it useful and it may help you with your expectations.

Jesus OP I just read your most recent post.

We have this phrase in our friendship group. 'Get off the horse. The horse is dead.'

Why don't you let this go, take some time out, then find someone who actually likes, then loves you.

Also physical contact shouldn't be something someone is required to demonstrate or force themselves to give. Why would you want it in that scenario? How could you find comfort when faced with someone's obvious discomfort? And all of that is the opposite of unprompted.

I've been looking into Relate, it seems quite dear which might be a struggle if we go more than a couple of times a month, but I guess that its cheaper than a divorce.

I'll speak to DW and ask how much we can afford it.

But speaking to marriage counsellors still won't change the fundamental way she expresses affection, what are you hoping they will help with? Are you going to accept it if she doesn't fulfil your list of requirements or are you willing to negotiate what is more natural on both sides?

I don't think you sound like a prat Harmless. It sounds like you love your wife very much and are trying your best to improve your marriage.

Unfortunately anytime that a man mentions sex, he tends to get jumped all over and made out to be the bad guy, pressuring his wife and only after one thing. It's horrible. Because it's fine to enjoy sex. It's fine to want to have sex. I think most of us enter into marriage with the reasonable expectation that sex will be a part of that relationship. I certainly would not willingly enter a sexless marriage and I don't think that makes me shallow or desperate. It doesn't mean that I don't respect and love my husband for other reasons as well. I'm sorry you've had a few rough responses.

I am not really a fan of the particular list you've written and I'm not sure that I would be thrilled to receive it because it does read a little bit like a complaint about the lack of sex, with a couple of token things thrown in to soften the blow. I can see from your subsequent posts that it's not your intention, so I don't think it gets your message across well at all. However, I don't think that a list is a bad idea per se. The lack of sex and lack of physical affection that you've described must be symptoms of a much deeper issue so I wouldn't make them the focus. Have you heard of love languages? The idea is that we all have preferred ways of giving and receiving affection and that we need to learn to speak in each others' love language. I think that a list could be a useful tool here. But I would 100% leave sex off it. Like you say, it's off the cards for the moment anyway.

You could make a bit of a game of it, settle down with a glass of wine and ask her to write down 5 things that she cherishes about your relationship, and 5 things that she would like to introduce to your relationship. Then you do the same. But I'd make them specific to your relationship, like one PP suggested. So maybe "I'd like to set aside a Saturday morning every month to take a long walk by the river together". Then compare lists. It could be very illuminating in terms of the things that you each place importance in and the ways you like to express your feelings.

X post with Fritz. Definitely have a look online at love languages OP.

OP I was all ready to be mean when reading your list. It comes across as hamfisted, indelicate and pushy.

Realistically I think you're just a desperate man - not in a saddo 'give me a shag' way- but that your relationship, regardless of sex, is not fulfilling.

I really dont know whether it needs to be you who is making changes her. It sounds very one way.