Listing where I want our relationship to be

[HarmlessChap]

I've made a list of objectives of what I think a happy and healthy relationship should be.

The bullet points of which are:-
Kindness
Friendship
Unprompted affection and declarations of love
Physical contact
Regular sex.

This is primarily to focus my mind and give myself some clarity on where I want our relationship to get to and I've gone into detail of how I define each point and where I see we are currently, but no suggestions of how to achieve it.

Would you give such a list to your DP or do you think it would it come across as passive aggressive?

I'm thinking of giving it to her and asking her to do the same and give to me.

Harmless, maybe have a go at reading about the 5 Love Languages: www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X?tag=mumsnetforum-21 There's also a website and test online to give you an overview without having to buy the book.
Basically, it's about identifying how you show love and how your partner shows love and matching your expectations and actions to that. It can seem a bit woo-ey, but I find it interesting an like it actually makes sense.
Spending time with your wife and identifying your love languages and how you can both work harder at meeting each other's expectations/needs.
And I suppose, whether you are both willing to put in the work required. See how it goes while you wait/save for some counselling sessions?

I think I might have said this to you before Harmless (or maybe I've just thought it), but anything suggested by MNers only stands any chance of working if your wife is still invested in your marriage. And it's impossible for us to know whether she is or not. I think you're probably struggling to work that out yourself.

I really think you should be asking her to attend counselling with you. If she's not prepared to, then there's your answer. If she is prepared to (and I don't mean her saying yes but then making excuses like too expensive) then I think a counsellor could help you two to unpick a lot of this and work out whether what will make each of you happy is ever going to be achievable - and if so, then how.

Well I like lists. I wouldn't be offended. I think your list is pretty good actually and a recipe for a good relationship.

If my DH presented me with that I'd think oh shit, why haven't we talked about this? I agree you are trying to get clarity here by putting your thoughts to paper so it makes sense to you.

You sound pretty sad about it all actually and I hope things improve for you.

I don't think this is about 'if my DH gave me this list...' I think it's about giving this list in the context of a limping and rather one-sided relationship. And that doing the OP zero favours.

It all feels very forced.

I think you need external help and a new approach if it's to have the vaguest hope of working.

Everything does feel very forced though, its quite apparent that she doesn't really see me in as her lover, more like a best friend or brother

I'm not sure what you expect to happen TBH? This has been going on a long time, you have certainly been posting about it for a long time.

IMHO you would both be much happier if you stopped trying to force this relationship to work when it clearly isn't going to.

Harmless, has you wife ever explained why she is not interested in any kind of physical contact??

One of my sisters is spectacularly unaffectionate - she simply doesnt do hugs kisses or cuddles, ever and never has. But sex isnt a problem.

From my comfortable sofa it seems to me that you are flogging a dead horse. A sexless, hug free marriage for 5 years is not a glitch.
She either has mh issues, which you can't solve.
or She doesnt fancy you, which you can't solve
Or she is asexual, which you can't solve

So as suggested earlier, why not write a list of reaosns to say with her. (20 lines of 'because I love her' dont count)

Sad to say i think your marriage ended a long time ago.

Do you know if your wife has no interest in sex? Or no interest in sex with you?

Not knowing your back story, what reason does she give for not being interested in sex?

And, as many other posters have asked, what are you getting out of the marriage? Why are you so determined to make it work? She doesn't seem to be similarly motivated. The sunken costs fallacy does come to mind here.

Don't. Just don't.

Hope you've got a good legal team and I would suggest you wear good protector for your bollox when you present her with the list :)

I'd only bother with the last item

Every few weeks she does make her excuses (tired, not feeling well etc.) and heads off to bed early during which I know that she reads her erotic fiction and sorts herself out with vibrator, so she has some libido.

I doubt that she fancies me, but if I ask she says she does. MH is a possibility, there are background issues with childhood emotional neglect from her mother which surfaced during her PND which might be the reason or at least part of it (i.e. an attachment disorder) but she found facing those issues through counselling too difficult and refuses to try again.

As for a list of why I stay that is many fold. I love her, want her and want to be happy with her is top but we are also best friends and make each other laugh. We do have fun, we do parent well together and we have great kids.

On a selfish basis I would hate to be anything less than in my kid's life every day and even if we co-parented 50:50 that would mean half the time I wasn't.

Financially, we would not be in a position to both afford large enough accommodation to accommodate the children I would most likely have to go into a bedsit or shared house. So 50:50 wouldn't be doable either. I suspect that the DCs would blame me if I left and would side with their mother.

DC1 displays some elements of autism he, dislikes change DC1 & DC2 have exams next year (GCSEs & A' Levels) so It could be disruptive to do anything now, DC2 will be doing A' Levels in Summer 2020, so I wouldn't want to do anything to disrupt daily life until after then.

If I end the marriage chances are I'll also lose my best friend, while I have a reasonably large circle if friends none of them are close and I have no RL support.

She is making an effort, she didn't think that there was anything wrong with a marriage becoming platonic over time, she is slightly baffled that this is "now" an issue despite the fact that I have raised it repeatedly but doesn't want to lose me so she is trying.

As I see it I've put up with things for a while and we're working together on this I'm not prepared to throw in the towel just yet, if I'm still in the friend zone, rather than a husband, once DC2 has done her A' levels then that's got to be time to it to draw an end and move on.

How it reads though is that you are trying to force her to have the kind of relationship with you that she simply doesn't want.

IMHO even if all of those things are reasons not to end the relationship, they certainly are not reasons to be trying to force someone who simply sees you as a friend and nothing more to treat you like a husband when she just doesn't feel that way about you now.

If you aren't happy being a friend rather than a husband then your choice is to face those issues and initiate a split or suck it up and wait until those issues are not issues anymore... however there is never a good time to split up.

I mean honestly can you really not see how you are sinking dangerously close to being a bit of a rapey creep? You believe she doesn't fancy you, you understand she doesn't want to be physically affectionate or have sex but you are making demands that she do it through gritted teeth anyway - for what reason?

A rapey creep? I've already said that sex is off the table for that very reason!

I'm not making her do anything, I've said I'm not happy, she doesn't want me to leave she wants us to work at it.

Seriously though, AIBU to think that a marriage should be more than just good friends?

Seriously though, AIBU to think that a marriage should be more than just good friends?

No, but maybe if that's where it is, then rather than trying to find ways of wanting to eventually have sex with each other again, your efforts would be better channelled into separating.

No, you are definitely not BU to think or want your marriage to be more than that. But YABVVVVU to expect that you can decide both to not end the relationship because of issues to do with DC and yourself and that having not ended the relationship you are unsatisfied with she needs to be more physically affectionate, tell you she loves you and have regular sex with you when you believe she doesn't fancy you and sees you as a friend now.

Being good friends seems to be what you believe she is happy and comfortable with. Your solution to your (completely understandable) dissatisfaction with your marriage being conducted in that way is to pressure her to have physical contact with you that she doesnt want.

That is what is quite rapey about it.

I would suggest your choice is to continue in the relationship without pressuring her to have physical contact/make declarations she doesn't want to for the reasons you listed above until those reasons are not present anymore and you leave, or until she (very remote possibility) changes her feelings about you herself. Or the dissatisfaction with how your marriage is is so great that you, like many other people, leave and accept the reduced financial circumstances and try to support your dc through the separation.

You don't come up with lists of behaviours she needs to work on, whether or not you give them to her.

Yes I have doubts that she fancies me but if I raise those doubts she tells me they are wrong and that she does. She just doesn't feel comfortable showing it because she has a problem with showing affection.

I'm not seeking to pressure her and a relationship where she feels obliged to hug me let alone sleep with would be a deal breaker for me.

Is she being unfair to suggest that I stay and say she wants us to work on it?

She is being unfair if she is saying that but then not contributing to working on it.

What does she suggest would be working on it?

If you haven't got kindness and friendship you don't like each other much. So unless it is just shag buddies, stop wasting each other's time.

Yes, she is.

As with all your previous posts it seems pretty clear your relationship is over.

If she wants to prolong the misery (which is mainly yours because you still love and fancy her) then you will have to be the one to break it off.

It's not fair but it's not really about what's fair and what isn't. You can't carry on indefinitely with her throwing you an occasional hug to stave off the worst of your desperation. Her heart is very clearly not in it and rather than setting goals for the relationship to achieve I would simply say your feelings then sit back and watch her actions in response (and do not micro manage her).

OP i've seen your threads here for years. (I name change regularly). You really need to just accept your wife as she is. Please, please stop trying to make her change to meet your needs. I know you imagine yourself as "harmless" and kind, but it IS harmful to try to talk someone into being who they just aren't.

She has a libido but she doesn't want to have sex with you. I'm sorry but you need to accept where she is, who she is, how she feels. This isn't a case of "getting the spark back" or talking it through etc, you yourself say you doubt she fancies you, that she basically has been sorting you out to keep the peace. There is literally nothing she can do about her sexual feelings for you changing. It's a thing that a body does without its occupant having control over it. So stop trying to cajole her into being physically / sexually close with you. I don't mean that unkindly. I just really, really need you to see what you are doing because you are not helping the situation at all.

If she does indeed have attachment disorder, I feel desperately sorry for her because your efforts to "manage" her into behaving in a way that meets your needs must be incredibly stressful and invasive for her. I myself have a slightly avoidant attachment style, my ex H absolutely obliterated my self worth by trying to nag, cry, "discuss", plan, manipulate, etc me into being how he wanted me to be. It was exhausting and depressing to be constantly reminded how the person I was naturally was just not good enough for him. I often asked myself why I couldn't love him "properly". It even made me scared to leave him because I thought maybe I was the problem, maybe I just didn't know how to have a relationship, because that's what he was constantly implying by trying to get me to change...

But I left in the end. And funnily enough I had no issue finding a new partner even though I was scared I wouldn't at the time. In my new relationship my partner gives me much more space and just lets me "be" and I can tell you I feel closer to him and more understood and loved than I ever did with my ex H, who was constantly in my face telling me he loved me, trying to cuddle me when I wanted to be left alone, etc. Sad but true. Some people just DO NOT fit together in a way that creates happiness.

Let her be who she is! If who she is naturally isn't what meets your needs, ACCEPT that, don't ask her to change (people just don't! if they do it's temporary, and it's miserable!), and start quietly making preparations to go when your DC are finished with school. I would say earlier, you can still see them every day if you have 50/50, it just takes some planning.

Honestly? there are 3.5 billion women on this earth. Why is it mandatory that she deform herself into the woman you want to be married to? Blunt I know but worth thinking about?

Chap I have read your comments and posts here and there
Other more regulars may have a better understanding of your situation so AIA if I talk crap, but..... why exactly are you not leaving ?
I am aware "she doesn't want you to" but really it only takes one person to leave. Genuine question, OP

Excellent post, jouu