Listing where I want our relationship to be

[HarmlessChap]

I've made a list of objectives of what I think a happy and healthy relationship should be.

The bullet points of which are:-
Kindness
Friendship
Unprompted affection and declarations of love
Physical contact
Regular sex.

This is primarily to focus my mind and give myself some clarity on where I want our relationship to get to and I've gone into detail of how I define each point and where I see we are currently, but no suggestions of how to achieve it.

Would you give such a list to your DP or do you think it would it come across as passive aggressive?

I'm thinking of giving it to her and asking her to do the same and give to me.

I'm not sure how old your younger child is but surely the older two won't be seeing you every day for much longer anyway, you know with them becoming adults, Uni, jobs etc.

Wow, I thought I was working with her trying to save our marriage but instead I probably manipulative and actually a bit of a rapey creep, I can honestly say that's really hard to read.

I suppose I shall have to have the discussion with her. While there isn't a good time to end a relationship I suppose there may be a least bad? I'm going to feel a prize cunt when I do that's for sure and I don't know how to do it without alienating my kids.

Is your relationship with your children dependent on your relationship with your wife?

I've always thought your username on MN was so telling. You think of yourself as "harmless". I suspect a lot of your identity is bound up in the idea that you must be "harmless" to be a good person who is loveable etc. I wonder if your journey out of your marriage will teach you that sometimes harm - that is, an action that causes you or another to suffer - is actually a mandatory feature of living an authentic life where you can be real with people and show them your light AND dark sides.

No one is harmless. All of us have to hurt others sometimes in order to be true to ourselves.

Do you think your children will not love you anymore if you dare to allow your wife to suffer?

Do you think that if you change anything in your life that your children will be alienated from you?

Think about these questions, what do you think your children's love for you is predicated upon?

I don't think you need couples counseling, I think you would do better to chat to an individual psychotherapist. I have always got a really strong feeling from you that you brutally deny certain parts of yourself... And possibly project them onto your wife instead of acknowledging them in yourself.... And accepting YOURSELF as you are.

How is trying to force physical affection and sex that she doesn't want to have and getting her to falsely declare feelings she doesn't have 'working with her'?

Everything you have described in your many posts over a long time portrays a marriage where she just wants to be friends with you and you want to have a loving relationship with her again and neither of you want to end it.

That isn't hopeful, that is two people who have incompatible hopes and desires in a relationship that is just going to hurt them both the longer it continues.

You can grasp around for things that happened in her childhood and focus on her saying she wants to stay together whilst ignoring her really clear behaviour about what she is and isn't happy with happening in the relationship... but ultimately you still love and fancy her and she sees you as a friend and if you start writing lists of your expectations of her re sex then yes you are going down the creepy rapey angle because she just doesn't want to have sex/physical affection with you anymore. She will have sex etc to stop you just leaving, but she doesn't actually want to, if she did there would never have been a problem would there? Because she would be being physically affectionate and she would be wanting to have sex... there wouldn't be any 'trying'...

Well you say you've seem my threads for "years" and yet I only signed up January last year. I called myself HarmlessChap as I didn't want to appear threatening on a forum full of mums but I wanted a female perspective, I also felt I should disclose my gender. I was re-reading Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams at the time and it seemed an OK name.

At the time I joined up I was at rock bottom, and in a very bad place. I have had one on one time with a therapist as I was unpleasantly close to taking a walk to the woods with a rope. I know who and what I am, you can think what you like of me that is your prerogative, but thankfully I'm in a much better place now.

As for my relationship with my kids. My wife has conditioned them since they were little to side with her when she wants something. It caused some parenting difficulties as I was always painted as a the bad guy.

I do not fear that they will stop loving me, I do fear they will stop liking me and I do expect that they will feel loyal to her as that is the way they have always been.

Your relationship with your kids is yours to make or break. If you really feel your wife has deliberately manipulated your children so they always side with her against you that makes this marriage seem a. Like it has been very disfunctional for a long time and b. Crazy for you to be desperate to cling onto her.

I didn't say 'years' I said a long time and many posts. That last post is simply a distraction.

I'm not sure what you expect people to say.

The relationship made you suicidal but you want to do everything you can to stay together? No-one is going to encourage you to do that and people are certainly not going to agree that you should send her a note stating you expect physical affection, declarations of love and sex from someone who just doesn't want to do any of those things.

you can get love, affection, intimacy etc from another person who actually wants to share those things with you

"you can think what you like of me"

Jesus OP. Do you understand that I don't think anything bad of you? I'm spending my precious time trying to help you.

I had to come to terms with really similar issues when I left my marriage. There's no shame in it.

Cut the defensiveness, seriously. Even the sharpest toned posts in this thread have been offered in the spirit of helping you see sense.

It's now coming out that youve been suicidal and that she's alienated the children from you...? I reiterate that you need individual counselling, with a view to exiting this marriage.

I think people are being a bit harsh and using the term rapey is insulting to pretty much everyone including the op
I've said this before I think it's very hard for men sometimes when it comes to leaving and having children. If it were a woman it would most probably end up that she would stay with them.
And I don't think it's a bad thing that the op wants love and friendship and sex in his marriage I would want that too.
Op I think counselling is really the only way forward. But she has to want to.
And you deserve to feel truly loved.
I think if you have got to the end of your tether a list is just to make people sit and think, it's there in black and white whereas people can just not listen to words. Maybe the list is the issue, but a letter expressing that's what you want from your relationship might be a good thing.
Good luck OP, lots of women on here understand how hard it is to be in such a situation and it does drive you slightly insane

Your list isn't realistic. Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you. She can barely tolerate non sexual contact. She has a libido but opts to satisfy it on her own, away from you. She wants your marriage to be platonic. You are just not going to get from that to 'unprompted affection' and 'physical contact' let alone 'regular sex'.

You seem to think that by your wife forcing herself to do things she is naturally uncomfortable with or doesn't want to do she will become comfortable with them or want to do them. So sex is off the table for now - but after a few months of enforced hugs or cuddles on the sofa will this be the next action you 'work through' so you can get to your goal of 'regular sex'? You're the only person who seems to think that stands a chance of returning to your relationship - everyone else can see that ship has sailed, and having that as a requirement, therefore, is troubling. That I think is what is triggering words like 'creepy' and 'rapey'.

You are quite within your rights to want all of these things in a relationship - but only from someone who wants to give them to you. Your wife doesn't. You either let go of your list and find a way to make a platonic relationship work or bite the bullet and move on.

Ok I've got a real beef about using the term rapey:
Adjective. (comparative more rapey, superlative most rapey) (informal) Inclined to commit rape (sexual assault).

No one. I mean no one should bandy these types of terms about willy nilly it's just not on, unless you think the op is inclined to commit sexual assault, which no one has any clue about, as we don't know him in RL
and unless I've missed something I don't think he's said the cuddles are enforced, it's something they're working on according to the op who is our only source of info so we have to take his word on it, like we take many other peoples (women's) word.
Give him a break FFS
If a woman came on here and said what he's said, there would be a totally different reaction and I bet no one would use the words rapey

I don't see why the OP is getting such a hard time. It must be absolutely hideous being married, and committed for a lifetime, to someone who never shows you ANY affection.

I feel sorry for you, OP. You must feel incredibly lonely.

Were there no signs of this at all before you got married?

Were there no signs of this at all before you got married?
No, affection was freely given by both. For the first few years all was good, sex was a weekend thing and occasionally mid week so we were never at it like rabbits but that was fine we were both happy with everything. I always instigated sex but that's just how it was.

When the kids came along so did the PND, which saw the turning point, and lasted about a year and a half with each albeit the final 6 months were a steady improvement or DC2 would never have been conceived. While she was depressed it was tough for both of us, a lot of the time she was more like a robot than a person. They were the worst years by far, once she recovered she had got out of the habit of showing affection. I took on the role of affection giver and when I did she reciprocated, however with it being so one sided over the years I began to feel very rejected. I became quite resentful and quick tempered so it was a viscous circle as she then started to reject the affection. Over the last 2 years I have got my quick temper under control, it was never a violent temper but I did do a fair impression of a young Victor Meldrew.

What I find difficult to reconcile is that

She says she loves me. When I ask
She says she fancies me. When I ask.
She says she wants our marriage to work. When we talk about it.
She came up with the plan of forcing herself to show affection to try to resolve the problems .
She claims that she has a problem with showing affection as opposed to stating she does not want to show affection.

Ultimately I need another discussion with her. Although she maybe content with a platonic relationship I need to know if she actually misses the closeness of physical relationship with me, not just sex but hugs, kisses and cuddles. If she does then I suppose we have a chance and we need to work out how we resolve or work around her difficulty with showing affection, almost certainly through counselling.

If, however, she is simply making an effort to keep me happy then we are not trying to go in the same direction so it has got to be the end.

The only problem is whether she would lie to keep me. Generally she is a strong independent woman so I have to hope that she would be honest with me.

The whole thing about getting the kids to side with her started off as a jokey thing, "mean daddy", it did become an issue with parenting and she attempted to rein it in but it was already established. However she will still use it to get her own way when she feels so inclined.

Look you said yourself that you wouldn't be happy with forced affection... so why do you think it is ok just because she has said she will try to force herself to do it with the aim of it eventually becoming natural - that never works. Forcing yourself makes you associate very negative feelings with the action and makes the problem worse.

Again I re-iterate that the relationship is over. It sounds like it has been troubled for years and that from her perspective the love has gone but she just doesn't want to confront that fact, as you don't. If you go down the route of forced affection it will lead to unwanted sex and whoever suggested you do that, it is a creepy rapey route as fundamentally the actions are forced and unwanted.

Trying I'm not 'bandying about' those words I'm quoting PPs (hence the quote marks!) and trying to explain why I thought those kinds of words were coming up in their posts - ie that when you're talking about one person that wants sex and one who doesn't people will start to worry that there could be a degree of coercion.

Harmless I do understand that when you e asked your wife if she fancies you etc she says yes - but her actions don't back this up. If you now ask her if she misses having sex with you she may say yes - but the reality is that she does experience desire and wants to satisfy that on her own, not with you. Words are meaningless really, actions are what's important.

I actually was in a long term relationship which eventually became platonic on both sides. We were very tactile and loving, and loved cuddling up together, hugging and holding hands, but the sex element was gone and we couldn't resurrect it. Sometimes, however much you love each other, it just doesn't work and you have to accept it and move on. We're both happily with other people now.

I'd advise, again, getting external help if you're to have any hope of finding a way through. But you're not going to get your wishlist.

In the kindest way possible, I think you need to wake up and accept that you will never have these things with your current partner. You post a lot about her and your relationship on MN, but nothing ever changes. She is not affectionate and (iirc) you haven't had sex in years. She isn't going to change. You are living a half life. If you want affection and sex, you are going to have to leave her and find someone new. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear, but you only live once, and living without affection and sex is no good whatsoever.

everything Huskylover1 just said

OP you are truly driving yourself insane, I feel your pain.

Please go back to GP/Therapist. Get help in RL.
Focus your mind and energy on the relationship with DC, have some fun with them !!

I'm guessing that when she answers "yes" to the questions "do you still fancy me?" "do you still love me?" and "do you want this marriage to work?", and the reasons that she tells you it's that she's finding it difficult to show affection, not that she doesn't feel like she wants to be affectionate, is because she is kicking the can down the road just as much as you are.

You are reluctant to end the marriage for many reasons. She probably feels the same. Doesn't want to be the bad guy; worried about what people will say; how things will work out with your child; financial concerns; fear of the unknown... she is not opting to stay because she genuinely wants to be there. She can't be.

I hear everything which is being said, I accept that we are both almost certainly both in denial.

Given that she has suggested this course of action I feel that we I need to let it play out to either make or break the marriage and then, assuming failure, it may be easier for both of us to move on without too much blame.

While doing so I shall try to ensure it's not coercive, try to get our ducks in a row, try to get as much RL support as possible and try to get beyond the immense fear that I will end up alone.

I think this is likely to be my final post on my relationship.

Tbh, you'd probably both experience a huge sense of relief and and sense of a great weight being lifted if one of you had the balls to say, "it's over, isn't it?"

And then you could put your joint efforts into working through an amicable closing down of the marriage rather than a tense, forced effort towards a show of "making it work".

I feel you have had a hard time and women posting something similar would not have had the judgemental terms bandied around.

Is your wife resentful of your past angry behaviour? Don't underestimate how anger can impact your wife.For lots of biological reasons women tend to feel fear from anger more readily than men.It could be a block to Intimacy.

On the issue of children and alienation.You should take that seriously if the issue is real.I do say "real" as it's often natural for dc's to have closer relationship with the stay at home parent.If she does use "naughty dad" phrases nip those in the bud as not acceptable.women often fear leaving a marriage for many reasons so understandable that you also have fears but you can face those and move on if that is the right approach.

If your marriage is full of friendship & fun then it seems a real shame that there can't be a physical side so that you can stay together.However as others say she may not want or be able to change.
Only you can decide if the benefits outweigh the negatives.Most people do need and want affection so it's valid to have those feelings.

I think I can simplify it for you OP - if it helps ...it's not always been like this and therefore -
She is saying - 'it's not you; it's me' - can we just be friends? (like we already are really).

And I think the answer for you is - it probably is you; and no, you can't just be friends with someone you are in love with.
Unfortunately there are lots of couples out there for whom this conversation is skirted around.
I'm so very sorry OP because this is so painful.
But if it's any consolation- the ONLY chance you have is to widthdraw with dignity- and see if, without your advances and efforts and pain and lists and trying to fix things, she sees you in a different light. Find yourself again! Hope it works out for you.

Whatever you decide to do OP, try not to let fear get in the way. It's such a miserable, limiting existence. Every time I've managed to push through fears and bite the bullet with things that aren't working (e.g. work, relationships) I've always ended up far happier as a result. You and your wife could both find this.

Hi Chap,

Sounds like you are a dedicated father and husband. You have the right idea of sticking to it, but with the help of in-person therapy for you and your wife, possibly a combination of separately and together. It can be expensive, but there are often pay what you can options or assistance through workplaces, etc. Persevere and get a second opinion from another counselor if you feel the need.

I don't want to go back over everything from this thread but there are a few points worth mentioning.
People do grow and change, so there is no shame in saying you want to take more time to work on things before throwing in the towel, particularly when your wife says she wants to do the same. Some people prefer splitting and working for better next time, other couples are glad that they pushed through together (and with help) to make it work again.

As far as writing lists, and being intentional about communication and relationship repair, yes, it is awkward and unsexy. So are diaper changes, finances, pukey kids, aging in-laws, and aging in general, but all of these things are essential aspects of building, maintaining, repairing, and ultimately enjoying our intimate relationships. You don't have to be Don Juan all the time to have a happy and satisfying marriage.

Hope this is encouraging, at least. Best of luck!