Need another perspective on dh's behaviour

[WhatshouldIdoplease]

I have NC for this as I think some people in RL know my nickname. But not trolling - been around since the days of Cod and her typos, up until the nextdoor neighbour who doesn't like the birds ruining his piano playing. I feel a bit scared posting here, but at the moment I need other perspectives as I feel like my brain is exploding and going back and forth. To give a bit of background, I take ADs on a fairly mild dose but feel a bit out of control emotionally at the moment, so I don't know what to think and am feeling all sorts of different things. 4 incidents in the last week have shaken me somewhat regarding dh. I will try and tell them as factually as possible.

1. Last Sunday was ds1's birthday (11). He had a football party at a sports' centre, run by them. Dh joined in. The first game was some challenge where you took other players on one-to-one and the loser had to sit out. Anyway, so it was dh and another kid at the end - this kid is really good. I missed most of the game as I was fetching someone from the station but came in at the end, and saw dh taking on this kid at football. Clearly as an adult taking on an 10/11 year old he won, therefore winning the whole game.

1. Later the same evening I was upstairs, heard ds2 (8) scream and cry. I ran downstairs. Dh was hovering about somewhere but not doing anything. I thought ds had fallen off the sofa onto the tiled floor. He was really, really crying, lying on the floor. I scooped him up, cuddled him, asked what happened. Found out dh had kicked him. Then found out ds2 had kicked him in the balls just before that. After crying for a bit he was fine and there was no more pain after that, or any bruising.

1. We were in McD's on Sat night. Just me, dh and ds1 (other dc with my parents). There were 2 kids aged around 12/13 in there, clearly nowhere else to go, no food or anything. Ds1, bless him, was offered a helium balloon and took it. These kids were asking staff for a balloon but the staff wouldn't give one. They started hassling ds for his balloon, and he was torn about giving it to them, but I said don't give it as they just want to use the helium. They kept hassling. We were having a bit of banter as the boy said he wanted it for his 2yo sister and I said he'd have to learn to lie better than that! It was all good natured, but he was annoying. Dh was sitting with his back to them, I was facing them next to ds. Then they called me Michelle. (Not my name). Dh turned around and was quite aggressive to them out of the blue (he had not said a word till then). Then the boy said, "What country are you from?" (Dh is not white). Dh got really aggressive then. He did not hit him, but he was really trying to intimidate him and shouted at him to stop being so rude and to act his age etc. The kids got thrown out of McDs. I was really upset with dh. I could understand him reacting that way if it was a huge, racist skinhead bloke, but this were kids. I think to be honest, it just triggered everything from the Sunday. I was so angry with him I had to leave McDonalds. (I bumped into the kids later in Lidl and they apologised, but dh has still not. I told him they apologised to me).

1. Yesterday ds2 and dh again 'playfighting'. They do it a fair bit. Ds2 started shouting 'Mum! Mum' - I said, If you want Dad to stop then tell him to stop. He did not tell Dad to stop. Next thing I heard a bang and then nothing. I was really worried, ran downstairs. Ds once again is crumpled on the tiled floor, doing 'quiet crying' (this scares me more than screaming). Dh is sat on the sofa. I asked what happend. Dh said he fell off the sofa. I was shouting at him, "Why aren't you doing anything then?". I ran to get ice. Did the usual cuddling. Ds went upstairs but he did not really want to engage with me, was crying in a corner. Had a chat with him later and he said Dad pushed him off the sofa onto the floor after he knocked Dad's glasses off. I was absolutely fuming and lost it with dh. Again, ds2 was fine and no pain later on so he is seemingly overreacting but it is very scary at the time. He was also fine with dh this morning and even later in the evening.

Is this just messing about gone wrong? It's dh's reactions which have got me. If I hurt my child by accident I would rush to help. If I had lost my temper, I may be too angry to do anything or flooded with guilt. The weird thing is that ds2 is dh's favourite (he's extremely clever and very sporty, just v talented all round) and we have had many talks about him not 'favouritising' ds2. Dh is not English and comes from a family where children were hit. I have not spoken to dh since last night. I told him to get out of the house straight afterwards (he didn't) and was shouting at him. I feel so upset just remembering it all and I genuinely don't know what to do. I did not speak to Dh about last Sunday. I was quite ill at the beginning of the week, and tend to go to bed quite soon after he gets in from work anyway, and by Thursday which was the first opportunity we had to talk, I had either forgotten or blocked it out of my head. I have not dh's perspective on any of this, but equally he has not spoken to me.

Please advise. I will try and answer questions as best as I can.

You said you grew up with violence around you, not specifically in your house. You said this is 'normal', but it is not.

Posters are angry with the OP because she is minimising her husband's behaviour.

I'm 46, I hope this helps.

I said it was normal. It was absolutely normal for children to be physically punished, and legal in schools too.

Of course your normal might not be my normal. I went to school on a council estate in the NW that was considered to be pretty rough by people in the naicer areas around it (though compared to things in some inner cities I am sure it was mild as milk). Perhaps you went to school in one of the naicer areas? Different cultures exist practically next door to each other and what is normal for one isn't normal for another. In my school, that was normal.

The point I am not remotely making is that any of this is ok. Even when it was normal around me, I found it scary and knew it was wrong (partly of course because I was lucky enough that it didn't happen in my house).

BUT. how we approach this, from our deeply held position in our hearts that it is not ok, is really important.

What we have learnt from Trump's popularity and ultimate election win is that there are huge swathes of people for whom sexual assault is simply not a problem (for instance). Arguably, worse - it's a feature not a bug. Unreconstructed attitudes to male power and authority never went away in some cultures. (I am not using culture meaning anything necessarily geographic or racial - talking about how pockets of people's normality are different.) There are huge chunks of discourse that are massively out of step with each other, and not effectively communicating

I hate male violence but I do not pretend that every instance of it is some weird anomaly

NotStopped - which post are you agreeing with?

Ok, last post as I am going to name change back. Gloria, my friend did say it depends on where you are, but where she is, and where we lived, is a very deprived area of London (though probably more funding). Where we are now is a bit less deprived but lower funding judging by schools and health services. She said there are children who really need to be removed who are not, and she has to deal with that all the time. I told her exactly what I told here, if anything more detail as I could describe it all verbally. I am relieved I am not living in constant fear that my children will be removed from me because of this as I would never tell ds that he shouldn't talk about it at school. I realised that I really did believe that if he said anything at school, my kids would be taken away from me as I had not protected them etc. etc. My friend just laughed when I said that (she knows me as a mother) and said I have to stop my mind going there because that would never happen on this basis.

For those who have accused me of minimising because I love my husband too much, or I don't love my kids enough, this couldn't be more wrong. I said before that I am trying to limit the damage. There is already damage. If this can be stopped right now and never happen again, there will be a lot less damage than a divorce/ dealing with access etc. Would it be ok leaving him alone with them? Would denying him any access at all be good for them? Would a judge really deny all 3 of them access based on those 2 incidents? It would get extremely acrimonious, which I believe would be worse for the children than what has already happened. If I reported to SS and they investigated, but were not concerned, and just referred us for a parenting course, where would that leave my relationship with dh for the future? I don't love him one ounce at the moment. I am not interested in protecting him from anything. However, my children do love him very much. When ds1 heard dh's key in the lock yesterday he said, "Yay. Dad" under his breath and ran downstairs to greet him. This not the action of a child who is scared, or just trying to please their parents. I am pretty sensitive to my kids. 2 of them have not been hurt. The other has been, in situations that I believe are controllable (no more play fighting plus Dh has had his warning). I have lived with dh for 13 years, and whilst our marriage may not be in the best place, I don't believe this will happen again. I don't think he is going to progress from what he has done to butchering us all in the night. He knows what is going to happen if he does it again.

In terms of a way forward. Friend said her and her husband (who dh knows and likes) could get together with us next week, but she is going back home this weekend for the first anniversary of her Dad's death. Also they live a bit far away, so she recommended going to friends who live closer. I am thinking of a couple where the husband is an ex policeman, so I know he will take it seriously. He is also a very gentle man - he is not going to tell dh it is ok. She said we should go together, get it out in the open, get dh help with his parenting, get dh to face it. She said if he won't go then I should go but it needs to happen this weekend. I will do this on my own if necessary, but I think he will come.

I genuinely believe this is the route of minimum damage. I am hoping I am minimising that. I am glad it is out in RL even if only with 1 person so far. If I am wrong and it ever happens again, then we will go to the next step.

It's been eye opening being on here. It was so different talking to my friend. I am just glad there was someone experienced I could talk to. For future, I think some of you need to be aware that you are paralysing OPs with fear and shame, rather than empowering them.

Blah blah blah

OP, you sound so calm and in control (though very sad). Good luck this weekend.

"For future, I think some of you need to be aware that you are paralysing OPs with fear and shame, rather than empowering them."

You know your DH best OP, but I have to say that going out with another couple and then the 3 of you effectively ganging up on your DH about this sounds like complete disaster to me...

He thinks he's going out with friends and then discovers you've told them all about this issue without his knowledge or consent?! And then you're all going to bring him to heel? Wow. Good luck with that.

How do you think he's going to react?

That sounds very constructive, OP. You and your H need two new rules in your household - 1. No play fighting (as people are getting hurt and not knowing when to stop) 2. Everyone, children and adults, must treat each other with respect at all times.

Denying access is in the best interests of the children if you spilt because he is violent. You are minimising this and for whom. Your husband not your children that's for sure.

As for help for his parenting no he needs help with his bullying this isn't a discipline measure it's outright bullying of your child. He isn't even comforting his child after play fighting that isn't normal behaviour right there.

Emotional and psychological abuse happens to children too. You are in denial and he will go ape shit at what you are going to do.

All I can say is stay safe and have the police on speed dial when he blows.

So your friend who "used to be a social worker" laughed at the idea your children would be removed if you continued to keep them around a man who was physically abusing them? Er, Ok then..........

What I said OP was that if a teacher or doctor find out they will be obliged to report to SS due to safeguarding.

I didn't address the issue of having your kids taken away. If you cooperate with SS and separate from your husband to protect your children, there's no reason for them to be removed. If you do not cooperate, minimise your husband's behaviour, and prioritise your relationship with him over your children's safety, then yes you could potentially lose them.

If your sons say anything at school SS will have to be notified, you will be assessed and you cannot rely in lack of funding to protect you, regardless of what your silly friend says.

Once violence starts it's more likely to escalate than to stop without significant intervention. And I don't mean you and some mates having a word, I mean a DV perpetrator programme as offered by Respect. Or completely removal. But bear in mind these programmes only have around a 15% success rate.

Dogs that are beaten by their owners still love their owners. Your kids' love for their father has no bearing whatsoever on the extent to which he damaging is damaging them. Children with abusive parents tend to try and protect themselves by placating the parent with love out of fear.

Gloria excellent post. I have run out of any sympathy I may have had for OP because she is more concerned about protecting her abusive husband instead of her children. In cases where the wife is scared of the abuser I can really sympathize but OP is adamant that she's not scared of him.

I doubt the friend exists and if she does, that's some poor advice she's given, if a friend of mine told me all that was going on , I would be calling social services myself . The truth will out hopefully and those children will get help from someone

Haven't read the whole thread, but violence aside, the party thing where he won the game, strikes me as REALLY weird behaviour. Like he has no social skills or boundaries. I mean, what adult would actually compete and win the game? No one that I know would ever do that.

Thanks cake. I too strongly suspect the friend doesn't exist, and if she does never worked for SS.

Op, I think it will be a big mistake to discuss this with friends. If you want proper advice why not book yourselves onto a parenting course or get some family therapy?

I think the way your DH reacted when you talked to him showed his true personality. He doesn't respect you enough to apologise for his behaviour. The moodiness and calling you stupid is a typical response from a bully.

Maudlin I think you hit the nail on the head here

I think that there is a deep undercurrent of denial of male violence (and emotional abuse) in society. And the form that it takes on mn is an angry insistence that men like this are an anomaly and that women who find themselves with one must suddenly act swiftly to excise this unclean thing from their lives, or be ostracised from the community. I would guess a huge proportion of the women on mn are living in unequal relationships with men and they need to name these situations as OTHER and get vocally outraged about them in order to enact some sort of psychological purge on their own situations

My current DP (hopefully my forever-DP) is a breath of fresh air, seems like everyone I dated before had this dark undercurrent of male control. A lot of them appeared to be 'modern men' very much touting feminism, even with badges and all. It is puzzling. But I finally feel I can breathe with my DP who doesn't have this kind of need to pretend to be equal but ultimately always to show they're the one in charge

I see OP's POV with the minimising damage thing. I wish you all the best OP and hope that your efforts lead to success.

Things like this are awful to read, and even harder to empathise with when children are being actually physically assaulted.

Trying to minimise any damage being done is not only an awful way to live, it is pointless. It's also the illusion that can keep people trapped in abusive relationships for years and years- they stay because they think they can 'manage' outbursts, but all it is is an illusion of control. Being unpredictable and changing goal posts all the time are key traits of an abusive person and neither can be managed.

I had an ex who started off 'accidentally' hurting the kids during play fights etc. It ended up with him seriously injuring our DS (then a small baby). And after that, a lot came out that had been happening whilst I was at work, that my children had been too scared to tell me about. Looking back, his reactions when he did so should have forewarned me of what was going on, and that something wasn't right.. Your DH's reactions sound the same.

You can't manage him, and his abusiveness will escalate. It always does. And the longer you stay, the less possible it becomes for you to ever leave, because you will become more and more worn down by it, and the huge and futile exercise of trying to keep your children safe from a man who is supposed to love them. I know a lot of people who have also escaped abuse and not one of them has never wished they hadn't left sooner, and mourned the years lost living like this when they could have had happy and peaceful lives. Or suffered from enormous guilt once the fog clears (which is does when you stay away) and the reality of how much risk their denial and minimisation actually did put their children at.

I can sort of understand now why people stay in those sort of circumstances, to an extent anyway ( although when I look back now and see the extent of the denial I was in and just how headfucked I was it blows me away). But others won't understand it, and they will judge you for staying. Including one day, your children. Why take all these risks just for fear of the unknown?

Please try at least to get some advice on all of this OP, from womens aid or another DV charity. And maybe educate yourself about abuse, how it affects people and the tactics they use. One day it will hopefully click and you will start to turn a corner. The only control you actually have over this whole situation is how long you continue to tolerate it for. That's it. It may be insidious, but in the meantime you and your children are suffering from more and more damage that will one day need recovering from. And that isn't fair on you, and certainly isn't fair on your children.

Why are you even letting him near YOUR BABIES?He assaulted one, twice.

Shocking thread.

You op are minimising, excusing and denying child abuse to the danger of your own child. If this is what's happening when you're in the house what on earth is happening when you aren't?

I too am sceptical about the 'friend' either she doesn't exist at all, wasn't told the full facts or is shit at her job.

Talking to your husband is one thing, have you talked to your kids? Asked them what dads like with them when you're not there?

i really don't understand why you're letting your husband stay. I'd have had the police out (no second guessing) and had them ensure he left.

My father was violent (which in your eyes makes me WRONGLY biased , on the contrary those of us that have been abused are the REAL experts on the long term effects because we're living it). It doesn't start with 'beating black and blue' it starts with seemingly easily explained 'accidents' or 'misunderstandings' then when they (the abusers) realise they got away with that, they escalate.

You have a choice

Violent husband who's taking NO responsibility for his actions and doesn't see them as wrong

8 year old boy, too small and weak to protect himself

Who needs your protection more?