Need another perspective on dh's behaviour

[WhatshouldIdoplease]

I have NC for this as I think some people in RL know my nickname. But not trolling - been around since the days of Cod and her typos, up until the nextdoor neighbour who doesn't like the birds ruining his piano playing. I feel a bit scared posting here, but at the moment I need other perspectives as I feel like my brain is exploding and going back and forth. To give a bit of background, I take ADs on a fairly mild dose but feel a bit out of control emotionally at the moment, so I don't know what to think and am feeling all sorts of different things. 4 incidents in the last week have shaken me somewhat regarding dh. I will try and tell them as factually as possible.

1. Last Sunday was ds1's birthday (11). He had a football party at a sports' centre, run by them. Dh joined in. The first game was some challenge where you took other players on one-to-one and the loser had to sit out. Anyway, so it was dh and another kid at the end - this kid is really good. I missed most of the game as I was fetching someone from the station but came in at the end, and saw dh taking on this kid at football. Clearly as an adult taking on an 10/11 year old he won, therefore winning the whole game.

1. Later the same evening I was upstairs, heard ds2 (8) scream and cry. I ran downstairs. Dh was hovering about somewhere but not doing anything. I thought ds had fallen off the sofa onto the tiled floor. He was really, really crying, lying on the floor. I scooped him up, cuddled him, asked what happened. Found out dh had kicked him. Then found out ds2 had kicked him in the balls just before that. After crying for a bit he was fine and there was no more pain after that, or any bruising.

1. We were in McD's on Sat night. Just me, dh and ds1 (other dc with my parents). There were 2 kids aged around 12/13 in there, clearly nowhere else to go, no food or anything. Ds1, bless him, was offered a helium balloon and took it. These kids were asking staff for a balloon but the staff wouldn't give one. They started hassling ds for his balloon, and he was torn about giving it to them, but I said don't give it as they just want to use the helium. They kept hassling. We were having a bit of banter as the boy said he wanted it for his 2yo sister and I said he'd have to learn to lie better than that! It was all good natured, but he was annoying. Dh was sitting with his back to them, I was facing them next to ds. Then they called me Michelle. (Not my name). Dh turned around and was quite aggressive to them out of the blue (he had not said a word till then). Then the boy said, "What country are you from?" (Dh is not white). Dh got really aggressive then. He did not hit him, but he was really trying to intimidate him and shouted at him to stop being so rude and to act his age etc. The kids got thrown out of McDs. I was really upset with dh. I could understand him reacting that way if it was a huge, racist skinhead bloke, but this were kids. I think to be honest, it just triggered everything from the Sunday. I was so angry with him I had to leave McDonalds. (I bumped into the kids later in Lidl and they apologised, but dh has still not. I told him they apologised to me).

1. Yesterday ds2 and dh again 'playfighting'. They do it a fair bit. Ds2 started shouting 'Mum! Mum' - I said, If you want Dad to stop then tell him to stop. He did not tell Dad to stop. Next thing I heard a bang and then nothing. I was really worried, ran downstairs. Ds once again is crumpled on the tiled floor, doing 'quiet crying' (this scares me more than screaming). Dh is sat on the sofa. I asked what happend. Dh said he fell off the sofa. I was shouting at him, "Why aren't you doing anything then?". I ran to get ice. Did the usual cuddling. Ds went upstairs but he did not really want to engage with me, was crying in a corner. Had a chat with him later and he said Dad pushed him off the sofa onto the floor after he knocked Dad's glasses off. I was absolutely fuming and lost it with dh. Again, ds2 was fine and no pain later on so he is seemingly overreacting but it is very scary at the time. He was also fine with dh this morning and even later in the evening.

Is this just messing about gone wrong? It's dh's reactions which have got me. If I hurt my child by accident I would rush to help. If I had lost my temper, I may be too angry to do anything or flooded with guilt. The weird thing is that ds2 is dh's favourite (he's extremely clever and very sporty, just v talented all round) and we have had many talks about him not 'favouritising' ds2. Dh is not English and comes from a family where children were hit. I have not spoken to dh since last night. I told him to get out of the house straight afterwards (he didn't) and was shouting at him. I feel so upset just remembering it all and I genuinely don't know what to do. I did not speak to Dh about last Sunday. I was quite ill at the beginning of the week, and tend to go to bed quite soon after he gets in from work anyway, and by Thursday which was the first opportunity we had to talk, I had either forgotten or blocked it out of my head. I have not dh's perspective on any of this, but equally he has not spoken to me.

Please advise. I will try and answer questions as best as I can.

Sorry OP but I had to pick you up on this comment:

Whilst I know culture is not an excuse, in my experience those from Afro Caribbean/ African/ Chinese/ Indian backgrounds (ie. born and brought up in those countries at least for some years) are well used to their parents hitting them

One - utter bullshit. (I'm mixed rage with plenty of "non English" friends)

Two - it is the lack of empathy that is scary. He seems to be seeing his ds as some sort of competitor. Your son is 8.

I wouldn't shout at your DH. I would remain calm so he knows just how serious you are, as there's the risk that he sees you as just overreacting and getting angry.

What will you do if it happens again?

I agree with the lack of empathy and seeing the children, including ds as some sort of competitor. That is spot on.

In terms of the cultural thing, I have so many friends (in fact vast majority) who are non English and virtually all of those were hit by parents (from Indian to Chinese), even including many East Europeans although the beatings seem to be less and more 'smacking' than using sticks, slippers etc. I was brought up in Central Africa and saw it a lot too. However, I am in my 40's so maybe for younger people it is different now. It is particularly different if you were brought up here as it is illegal and also there is a lot of help with parenting to stop it. But for most children abroad 30-40 years ago, it was a daily reality and I'm sure still is.

I'm not sure it's a cultural thing (I picked you up on it as it seemed racist) but a generational one. I was talking to my DH about this - he's white, English and grew up in the uk. He was telling me his parents used to hit him and this was normal and I think it was.

Anyway just because it happened to your DH it does not it anyway shape or form make it acceptable. Otherwise you run the risk of excusing it and minimising it until the next time it happens.

I think it is both cultural and generational and even social, but I'd say a lot of developing countries are a generation behind. Corporal punishment was not allowed in schools in the UK in the 80s but it was where dh is from. I was smacked a bit but I was never beaten, although I don't think my parents were beaten either). But dh was.

I know it's not acceptable. I don't even think Dh thinks it's ok. I am not minimising it (I don't think). I just think it would be extreme for me to have phoned the police yesterday. I agree with remaining calm otherwise he just says I'm getting angry and picks on that rather than his own issues. We are going to have a calm conversation tonight, believe me. And I will tell him if it happens again I will call the police. I am also putting strategies in place for the kids. I have told them there is to be no more playfighting with ANYONE and any hitting of any sort will have instant consequences, no warnings etc.

I come from an Indian and African background OP, you have no need to defend yourself. People from those countries tend to combine strict punishments with over the top affection so things balance out - but that's not the way we do things in the UK and he needs to understand that.

Your dh is wrong to do that to your son. Your son seems to also be out of line, knocking glasses off and actually kicking his dad, but your dh is not 11 years old, he is an adult and should control himself. If a kid knocked my glasses off or kicked me in the privates I would probably physically remove them into their room to stay until I was calm and could think of a punishment that fit the crime that did not involve physical discipline. Not sure if your son is always such a handful, but he needs to learn to not be so aggresive. And his father needs to control himself, he is stronger and could end up hurting the kid seriously. The kids in McDonald's, eh, whatevet...they were not hurt in anyvway. They were pestering you guys and so they got yelled at, maybe they will learn it is not acceptable behavior.

Oh and your dh winning the games at the birthday was straight out wrong of him, and very self centered and vain, he should have let the children win. I can see why somebody would like to kick him where it counts! But they shouldn't have done it. Violence is not the answer.

Do you mean English or British?

I just think it would be extreme for me to have phoned the police yesterday.

Yea - you keep minimising and making excuses for your sadistic husband.
Keep doing that until one day those kicks and shoves rupture the poor dc spleen, or stomach, or puncture a lung....or cause them brain damage.

They are children for fucks sake - and despite knowing that the 'silent crying' is a sign of how bad the violence is - you do nothing!

Kids learn violence from those around them - in this case your husband.

I used to get battered black and blue by my father, when i hit 11/12 yrs old i started to fight back. Yea, i would hit him exactly where it hurt in order to stop his assaults.

I hope your kids do what we eventually did and call Childline and the police.

I couldn't stay with a man who "took on" a child at a football party and beat him.

What a cock he sounds.

And that's WITHOUT the violence and abuse. Your children deserve protection yet I get the distinct feeling you won't leave this nasty bastard.

People from those countries tend to combine strict punishments with over the top affection

What utter bollocks! I come from an asian background and i don't agree with that at all.

Violence and the fear of violence are used to control children (and women) and to beat any free-thinking or self-confidence out of them.
Patriarchal cultures and societies like these 'normalize' violence - especially domestic violence - and they use fear to brainwash society into accepting this way of life.

It doesn't matter what bloody religion, culture or country it is - extreme violence is NOT how you discipline HUMANS.

What sort of man takes on children and tries to 'win' no matter what? Hes a dick. I think you're trying to use culture as an excuse reason for the behaviour, but at the risk of being slated on here? It sounds like your kids are badly behaved and need boundaries as to whats acceptable-this isnt being provided by their dad? You need to address him, but the dcs also need to be spoken to about whats acceptable and whats downright poor behaviour

A couple of points, OP.

1. It isn't whether it's culturally acceptable (or was) to use physical punishment. That's not what he's doing. He's losing his temper then retaliating against a child. It's a completely different scenario. (I was brought up with parents who would slap my legs/bum but would never, ever hit in anger. I'm white British.)

1. What happens if one of your kids talks about how Dad has done x,y,z this weekend? Schools are obliged to report this. If you haven't dealt with it, then you will be seen as neglecting your kids. The consequences will be more serious.

You really do need to make sure your kids are safe.

I would be worried about the temper. Re the playfighting, at a similar age 9/10 it happened a lot with me and d step dad. It frequently ended it tears, as predicted by mum and dad at times. I think it was a bit of a learning process - sd never went over the top but I would sometimes be 'hurt' as a result. More wrestling/snuffling I think. He didn't give me much sympathy but I can't say I felt abused. Not explaining it very well.

I would do as suggested and speak to dh. No playfighting, though it might not work. Dm was always telling me to stop. I took no notice, ten minutes later, tears.

I would have told him to leave or I'd call the police. No adult woukd KICK a child of mine & remain in the same house.

Your first point about winning at the party, that tells you everything you need to know about how his brain works.

He kicked your child, he pushed him off the sofa, he was intimidating children in MCD's - the list goes on and that's ONE weekend.

I understand you are scared of the consequences of involving the police etc, but the consequences will be FAR worse if this carries on & you haven't taken steps to protect them - and no, telling them no more play fighting doesn't cut it.

As soon as I read he kicked your son I knew this would be bad. He is a fucking vile bully and you are letting him abuse your children. You are fucking them up. This is abuse and you owe it to your children to stop it immediately. He doesn't scare you or hurt you , so that's ok then? Those poor boys. You need to step up as a mother.

Indian. Yes corporal punishment is not unusual. DH was hit by his dad. He would never ever dream of touching our kids. But also he wouldn't stand by watching one of them cry. Nor would he 'beat' one of them at a kid's party. That would be a knobbish thing to do in any part of the world.
Being spanked at school IN India is v different from being belted by your Dad as an 8 year old. It really is. I cannot describe how chilling I found this. I am surrounded by non English people and not a single father I know would treat their kid like this. Seriously.

Thanks all. Just an update. I had a chat with him last night. I started by saying I don't know what's going on with him. He asked me questions and mostly listened. He asked what I had understood from my conversations with ds2. I told him what I have told you with a slight amendment from ds2 that he wasn't pushed off the sofa but Dad pushed him hard on the sofa and he rebounded off it (not really any better, frankly). He said it was all true, so at least we did not have to debate that. He said he did not kick ds2 hard at all and 'it couldn't have really hurt' . He said ds2 was crying because had 'lost' the fight. (This is so wrong on so many levels, but he will not see that). He did not say anything about the other incident. I said if he ever does it again I will call the police. He went very quiet. Then he said, "Is this where our marriage has got to?". I wish I had thought to say, "Is this where your parenting has got to?" But I didn't. I said I am very surprised that his reaction is not one of sadness of what he has done, and instead he is making it about me and my reaction. I said, my first priority is to protect my child. He said it is not a big deal for the police. I said, I think they would take it quite seriously. He then said I have no respect for him. I said it is hard to respect someone who is not taking care of their family in the most basic of ways. That really upset him. He did not try and physically intimidate me, but I was very calm and not that close to him. He said, "Get out of my face. You stupid woman." He just kind of spat it out and walked off. I said he can move out and I went up to bed. He did not go to bed for ages (I was up for a long time) and slept with dd (she has a double bed). He is not speaking to me this morning. I said to him just before he left that he should not make this about me. It is not about me. That's all. I felt ok this morning around him, in fact super cheery which is weird, relieved I said it and stood up for ds2, but now I feel profoundly sad. I am not hungry (unheard of) and not eaten breakfast. I have ds1 off school today with a bad cough (he has asthma). He is quite anxious this morning though we have not spoken, he is very sensitive and probably got dh's vibes. I really don't want to face him this evening and his horrible mood. I don't actually think he would physically hurt us. I think it was wake up call, but he is going to take a while to process it and get over the 'hurt' at being called out on his behaviour.

Sorry forgot to add that he accused me of threatening him regarding police.

He sounds pretty immature and self centred.

I'd find it hard to trust him to behave any differently from here on because he doesn't see a problem with it. That makes going to the police all the more important if he does it again because you will need that report when it comes to organising contact, when you split.

So you got your answers.

1. He blames a child for over reacting.
2. He blames you for over reacting.
3. He blames everyone but himself.
4. He thinks his abusive parenting is fine.
5. He was nasty to you when you brought it up.

I am glad you have some insight into how it is. Please don't excuse his behaviour on cultural grounds.

you asked about different cultures.
My good friend has a Nigerian husband. Before they had kids he was adamant that smacking was part of the package for disciplining a child. Their eldest is now 8. Her dh has never ever smacked him. The reality of his child in front of him was that he wouldn't ever hurt him. He is quite able to be firm when necessary without it.

But you know what - I grew up with smacking, it was normal in 1970s and I look at what your dh is doing and it is NOTHING to do with using smacking as a discipline tool. What he is doing is about power and control. Play fighting does not get out of hand to the point the adult hurts the child. Why? because if it is genuine PLAY fighting then the adult maintains the boundaries. When the child over steps them, the adult stops the game.

To be fair I never asked if he thought his behaviour was ok. I just blurted the police bit out when he said that everything ds2 had said was true. I think I was vaguely hoping I or ds2 had misunderstood something. I think he felt very threatened by the police comment obviously so he never just admitted it was very wrong of him. I want to cry especially reading stone of the comments on here, but ds1 is at home so I can't lose. I also need to do some work from home. I am not scared. We have a lodger at the moment and people coming over tonight. I have a friend who is a teacher. I think I will tell her as she is also a safeguarding officer and will be able to advise from a point of view of knowing us both. Thanks. MN has been so helpful to me on many small occasions, it's hard not to believe it all.

Just to clarify 2 things again. 1. There was no bruising and 2. Whilst ds2 can be a bit of a handful, he would not kick dh in the balls or knock his glasses off if they weren't 'play fighting'.

You do know if he is heard at school saying daddy hit me and where the school will call you in plus if he says daddy pushed me hard of the sofa they might involve SS. If they find he has done these things and you haven't protected them it's a safeguarding issue.

this isn't discipline this is bullying and he knows it.

You're making excuses for him and you are minimizing. Your husband is abusive. Your DC are anxious . Have you read back what you've written!? He KICKED your son, he pushed him off the sofa. He is not sorry. Oh but it's ok because you're not scared of him?! Fine that your children are though eh?