Need another perspective on dh's behaviour

[WhatshouldIdoplease]

I have NC for this as I think some people in RL know my nickname. But not trolling - been around since the days of Cod and her typos, up until the nextdoor neighbour who doesn't like the birds ruining his piano playing. I feel a bit scared posting here, but at the moment I need other perspectives as I feel like my brain is exploding and going back and forth. To give a bit of background, I take ADs on a fairly mild dose but feel a bit out of control emotionally at the moment, so I don't know what to think and am feeling all sorts of different things. 4 incidents in the last week have shaken me somewhat regarding dh. I will try and tell them as factually as possible.

1. Last Sunday was ds1's birthday (11). He had a football party at a sports' centre, run by them. Dh joined in. The first game was some challenge where you took other players on one-to-one and the loser had to sit out. Anyway, so it was dh and another kid at the end - this kid is really good. I missed most of the game as I was fetching someone from the station but came in at the end, and saw dh taking on this kid at football. Clearly as an adult taking on an 10/11 year old he won, therefore winning the whole game.

1. Later the same evening I was upstairs, heard ds2 (8) scream and cry. I ran downstairs. Dh was hovering about somewhere but not doing anything. I thought ds had fallen off the sofa onto the tiled floor. He was really, really crying, lying on the floor. I scooped him up, cuddled him, asked what happened. Found out dh had kicked him. Then found out ds2 had kicked him in the balls just before that. After crying for a bit he was fine and there was no more pain after that, or any bruising.

1. We were in McD's on Sat night. Just me, dh and ds1 (other dc with my parents). There were 2 kids aged around 12/13 in there, clearly nowhere else to go, no food or anything. Ds1, bless him, was offered a helium balloon and took it. These kids were asking staff for a balloon but the staff wouldn't give one. They started hassling ds for his balloon, and he was torn about giving it to them, but I said don't give it as they just want to use the helium. They kept hassling. We were having a bit of banter as the boy said he wanted it for his 2yo sister and I said he'd have to learn to lie better than that! It was all good natured, but he was annoying. Dh was sitting with his back to them, I was facing them next to ds. Then they called me Michelle. (Not my name). Dh turned around and was quite aggressive to them out of the blue (he had not said a word till then). Then the boy said, "What country are you from?" (Dh is not white). Dh got really aggressive then. He did not hit him, but he was really trying to intimidate him and shouted at him to stop being so rude and to act his age etc. The kids got thrown out of McDs. I was really upset with dh. I could understand him reacting that way if it was a huge, racist skinhead bloke, but this were kids. I think to be honest, it just triggered everything from the Sunday. I was so angry with him I had to leave McDonalds. (I bumped into the kids later in Lidl and they apologised, but dh has still not. I told him they apologised to me).

1. Yesterday ds2 and dh again 'playfighting'. They do it a fair bit. Ds2 started shouting 'Mum! Mum' - I said, If you want Dad to stop then tell him to stop. He did not tell Dad to stop. Next thing I heard a bang and then nothing. I was really worried, ran downstairs. Ds once again is crumpled on the tiled floor, doing 'quiet crying' (this scares me more than screaming). Dh is sat on the sofa. I asked what happend. Dh said he fell off the sofa. I was shouting at him, "Why aren't you doing anything then?". I ran to get ice. Did the usual cuddling. Ds went upstairs but he did not really want to engage with me, was crying in a corner. Had a chat with him later and he said Dad pushed him off the sofa onto the floor after he knocked Dad's glasses off. I was absolutely fuming and lost it with dh. Again, ds2 was fine and no pain later on so he is seemingly overreacting but it is very scary at the time. He was also fine with dh this morning and even later in the evening.

Is this just messing about gone wrong? It's dh's reactions which have got me. If I hurt my child by accident I would rush to help. If I had lost my temper, I may be too angry to do anything or flooded with guilt. The weird thing is that ds2 is dh's favourite (he's extremely clever and very sporty, just v talented all round) and we have had many talks about him not 'favouritising' ds2. Dh is not English and comes from a family where children were hit. I have not spoken to dh since last night. I told him to get out of the house straight afterwards (he didn't) and was shouting at him. I feel so upset just remembering it all and I genuinely don't know what to do. I did not speak to Dh about last Sunday. I was quite ill at the beginning of the week, and tend to go to bed quite soon after he gets in from work anyway, and by Thursday which was the first opportunity we had to talk, I had either forgotten or blocked it out of my head. I have not dh's perspective on any of this, but equally he has not spoken to me.

Please advise. I will try and answer questions as best as I can.

I would have a chat with the NSPCC and or Womens Aid.

Your DH managed to spoil your son's birthday party by being over competitive. He should never have been allowed to take part in that kickabout but what made your DH think he was entitled to do that at all?. He seems to enjoy the power and control he has and wields over not just his children but other children as well.

I would also think your DS2 is starting to mimic more what he is seeing at home from his dad; that may also be why he has become more defiant and arrogant over the past year. Arrogance is never an attractive trait in a person.

The three of you ended up upstairs with him downstairs; there is so much wrong with that image I would not know where to begin. You seem very afraid of him also.

I'm not one for really over reacting but this is absolutely awful and I would absolutely end it. He kicked your eight year old son so hard he was in a crumpled heap crying and he just walked away and then he pushed him off the couch onto a tiled floor and he was crying and again he say ignoring him.

He sounds evil or he either has some anger or mental health issues and I would not keep my child around him to be hurt whilst working that out. Even if it was play fighting gone wrong, surely he'd cuddle him and say sorry. This is disgusting.

It's the complete lack of empathy and comfort when seeing his son hurt and crying in pain caused by him. It also shows he has no remorse. That's scary.

He sounds evil or he either has some anger or mental health issues

Mental health issues are no excuse for battering your kids! I'm sick of it getting wheeled out as an excuse. I have long term serious MH problems I have never hit my children.

People I have met as an impatient have not hit their children. Depression is not a get out of jail free card for child abuse.

Agree that pulling the mental health card is not fair. I know plenty of people with mental health problems who are excellent parents and would not hit their children. He just sounds abusive if im honest from that description especially not comforting a child when they have been hurt

Unborn, I meant as in anger problems. Not depression etc.

But also I'd like to point out that just because your mental health problems haven't meant you lash out, it doesn't mean others don't. It's kind of like saying my stomach cancer hasn't caused a change in my personality, so I don't understand why your brain cancer has. Whilst it's not an excuse, it could be a reason for him suddenly changing. I did also say don't hand around to find out.

*hang

No, I am not afraid of him. We were all upstairs because originally me, ds1 and dd were playing lego upstairs anyway (we have a playroom) and so I took ds2 with me. Dh sat downstairs in the dark after I'd yelled at him for a bit. He didn't say anything to me, he didn't try and intimidate me but neither did he move.

I am afraid of messing my kids' lives up, either by letting their Dad mistreat them, or by being in a catalyst in events that could end up messing them up even more. Police, SS, Divorce, Foster care. Who knows where this goes once you get on the train?

Whilst I know culture is not an excuse, in my experience those from Afro Caribbean/ African/ Chinese/ Indian backgrounds (ie. born and brought up in those countries at least for some years) are well used to their parents hitting them.

I would love to know if anyone on this thread is not born English and how you would react to this situation.

Oh, in terms of not comforting, I think he's going to say that he thought ds2 was doing it for attention. Ds2 does have form for this and can scream and yell blue murder and then be right as rain in a couple of minutes, usually when it comes to ds1 hurting him. As an eg. last Sunday on the way to swimming it was all a bit of a rush, dh was taking them swimming and I heard ds2 screaming outside. I ran out as he sounded like the door had shut on his finger or something. He said ds1 had hurt his hand (turned out it was an accident as they were all scrabbling to get into the car). It was 8.30am on a Sunday morning, no idea what the neighbours thought, but apparently he stopped crying after about a min and was fine to swim and had forgotten all about it by the time they came home and I asked what had gone on. So, I imagine dh will say ds2 was doing that and therefore he wasn't inclined to comfort him. However, even if it was an over reaction, he was still upset.

It doesn't matter what his reasons are - if a child could have hurt themselves / is upset, you look after them.

He is a bully - he enjoyed wunnng the kick about, he used his size and age to intimidate the children in McDonald's, when your ds
begins to 'win' in the play fighting (hitting his balls / knocking his glasses off) he uses his force to show himself as the man of the house.
This is going to get worse as your boys get older. They will challenge him more and his size isn't necessarily going to stop them.

As an aside, I would like to give you 2 examples from my family, to show the difference.
DH is a big man (tall, heavy set with a beard and a deep voice). He and dniece were playing football - they were neck and neck to DH 'fell' when trying to stop a goal so she could win. He doesn't care about the score and she thought it was hilarious.
Also, when play fighting with dnephew, he raises his arm to do a pretend karate chop. DN ran forward so as DHs hand came up he caught DN in the jaw. The game stopped immediately, he made sure DN was ok, comforted him then apologised once dn calmed down. That is a normal reaction!

I would have 1 conversation with your DH - tell him you don't care what ds has done, you expect him to remember he is the parent and the adult and to behave accordingly. And be prepared to leave if there are any more incidents

"I am afraid of messing my kids' lives up, either by letting their Dad mistreat them, or by being in a catalyst in events that could end up messing them up even more".

It could be argued that the first part of your sentence is already happening, do you not think that your children are already learning damaging lessons about relationships?. You also asked him to leave and he refused.

Your DH actively enjoys the power he has over children and people smaller than he is. Look at what he learnt about relationships from his own family, you want to be showing your children the same as he was?

Attila, I do believe they are already learning damaging things and that makes me furious and sad in equal measure. But it's about damage limitation isn't it. I genuinely believe if I can get dh to stop this, even if it involves him leaving his stressful job or whatever, that it would be LESS damaging than a break up, dealing with him having kids on his own or being denied any access which would break their hearts, struggling to cope on my own, may not be possible, them being taken away from me. The possibilities for being messed up are way deeper.

Arf, thanks for phoning. OK, as far as assumptions go I would have to say my friends are mostly Nigerian, Ghanaian, Sierraleonian so maybe I'm generalising West Africa. But also all my afro carib friends too. Not that they agree with it as a good thing, but that it is seen as pretty normal. Where dh is from even teachers were allowed to whack kids in class.

The problem is how do you get someone to stop? No one seems to have managed to get another person to do something unless their free will is taken away from them. So you want a very unrealistic solution that you can't have. What you can have is:

A relationship where you have to rely and trust someone's word that they won't do it where there is a high chance it could happen again seen as he blames this all on his own parents/DS

I don't think he will stop. He grew up in a family where hitting children was the norm so to him this is probably normal behaviour.

I think you are currently looking for something that will never happen.

Agree with you Heaven. Op, you have a duty to protect your children, you are failing in that duty.
What concerns me most is the lying, your DH hurts your children and then lies about it. Your children seem scared of him.

"But it's about damage limitation isn't it".

For whose benefit?. His?. No it is not about damage limitation. It is about these two children. They are on the receiving end of violence from their father.

" I genuinely believe if I can get dh to stop this, even if it involves him leaving his stressful job or whatever, that it would be LESS damaging than a break up, dealing with him having kids on his own or being denied any access which would break their hearts, struggling to cope on my own, may not be possible, them being taken away from me. The possibilities for being messed up are way deeper"

They are already being messed up by their dad's behaviours towards them. And that does not even cover his favouritism towards your youngest child and that subject is one you've talked about with him a lot before now as well.

How are you going to stop him from doing this?. You're his wife; not his therapist. He feels entitled to act like this and to act as he does. He does not behave like this at work, he can maintain good behaviour there.

He won't speak to you after any such incident and when you have asked him to leave before now he has refused. You won't be able to stop him and also what you have tried to date has not worked. If either of your children reported what happened to them to one of their teachers, they would be obliged to investigate further.

Many people also have stressful lives and jobs and they do not resort to using their size on people smaller than they are. You cannot also assume that their hearts would be broken if their dad was not given access, that is also not for you to decide and you are not their spokesperson.

Where he is from initially does not matter a jot. He is in the UK now and corporal punishment was outlawed in classrooms many years ago.

it doesn't matter what your DH's background is. He has been overly aggressive with kids 3 times in a week and completely unapologetic for it. If he does seek GP advice, it needs to be after he has left, which has to be today.

Divorce is a long way down the list of things which are bad for the kids, in this scenario. As for foster care, that is more likely if you don't kick him out and report him. What if next time he breaks bones, or knocks one of them out? You can't take that risk.

In Indian and African cultures beatings are balanced out by over the top affection. If that's not happening it can't be a cultural thing.

One thing that stood out from your posts was that your DS2 seems to be fairly naughty when you're not around. Is it possible that your partner is struggling to cope with the poor behaviour? It's not an excuse but I would be very unhappy if my 8 year old kid was kicking anyone in the balls let alone their dad.

It does matter because if it's a cultural thing it can eventually be overcome by opening up communication and thinking of different disciplining strategies that work in the UK. If he's actually deranged then that can't be fixed and OP should leave.

Colby yes, there is a huge amount of affection too. He spends a couple of hours with them every day after work, putting them to bed, chatting. He spends a lot of time with them at the weekend. I know he doesn't think it's OK to hit the kids but I think his background has made it less taboo then hitting an adult. I think both these incidents occurred on a Sunday eve when he's gearing up for work. He's been covering his boss mat leave and doing his own job. I think he needs help. I'm going to tell him tonight that if it happens again I will call the police. Also any aggression even in jest needs to stop, no more 'play' fighting. His boss is returning in Jan after being off 6 months.

Ah ok this is good. In that case I'd have an open discussion where you discuss alternatives to smacking. For ex if the 8 year old uses violence again you both do x y z to discipline him etc. You will need to make your expectations clear - no smacking under any circumstances and if it does then leave.

If you don't do/say anything you will have bred two physical abusers, who will go on to hit their own children and maybe their girlfriends/wives/partners too.

Do you want sons like this?

No, I didn't think so...