Need another perspective on dh's behaviour

[WhatshouldIdoplease]

I have NC for this as I think some people in RL know my nickname. But not trolling - been around since the days of Cod and her typos, up until the nextdoor neighbour who doesn't like the birds ruining his piano playing. I feel a bit scared posting here, but at the moment I need other perspectives as I feel like my brain is exploding and going back and forth. To give a bit of background, I take ADs on a fairly mild dose but feel a bit out of control emotionally at the moment, so I don't know what to think and am feeling all sorts of different things. 4 incidents in the last week have shaken me somewhat regarding dh. I will try and tell them as factually as possible.

1. Last Sunday was ds1's birthday (11). He had a football party at a sports' centre, run by them. Dh joined in. The first game was some challenge where you took other players on one-to-one and the loser had to sit out. Anyway, so it was dh and another kid at the end - this kid is really good. I missed most of the game as I was fetching someone from the station but came in at the end, and saw dh taking on this kid at football. Clearly as an adult taking on an 10/11 year old he won, therefore winning the whole game.

1. Later the same evening I was upstairs, heard ds2 (8) scream and cry. I ran downstairs. Dh was hovering about somewhere but not doing anything. I thought ds had fallen off the sofa onto the tiled floor. He was really, really crying, lying on the floor. I scooped him up, cuddled him, asked what happened. Found out dh had kicked him. Then found out ds2 had kicked him in the balls just before that. After crying for a bit he was fine and there was no more pain after that, or any bruising.

1. We were in McD's on Sat night. Just me, dh and ds1 (other dc with my parents). There were 2 kids aged around 12/13 in there, clearly nowhere else to go, no food or anything. Ds1, bless him, was offered a helium balloon and took it. These kids were asking staff for a balloon but the staff wouldn't give one. They started hassling ds for his balloon, and he was torn about giving it to them, but I said don't give it as they just want to use the helium. They kept hassling. We were having a bit of banter as the boy said he wanted it for his 2yo sister and I said he'd have to learn to lie better than that! It was all good natured, but he was annoying. Dh was sitting with his back to them, I was facing them next to ds. Then they called me Michelle. (Not my name). Dh turned around and was quite aggressive to them out of the blue (he had not said a word till then). Then the boy said, "What country are you from?" (Dh is not white). Dh got really aggressive then. He did not hit him, but he was really trying to intimidate him and shouted at him to stop being so rude and to act his age etc. The kids got thrown out of McDs. I was really upset with dh. I could understand him reacting that way if it was a huge, racist skinhead bloke, but this were kids. I think to be honest, it just triggered everything from the Sunday. I was so angry with him I had to leave McDonalds. (I bumped into the kids later in Lidl and they apologised, but dh has still not. I told him they apologised to me).

1. Yesterday ds2 and dh again 'playfighting'. They do it a fair bit. Ds2 started shouting 'Mum! Mum' - I said, If you want Dad to stop then tell him to stop. He did not tell Dad to stop. Next thing I heard a bang and then nothing. I was really worried, ran downstairs. Ds once again is crumpled on the tiled floor, doing 'quiet crying' (this scares me more than screaming). Dh is sat on the sofa. I asked what happend. Dh said he fell off the sofa. I was shouting at him, "Why aren't you doing anything then?". I ran to get ice. Did the usual cuddling. Ds went upstairs but he did not really want to engage with me, was crying in a corner. Had a chat with him later and he said Dad pushed him off the sofa onto the floor after he knocked Dad's glasses off. I was absolutely fuming and lost it with dh. Again, ds2 was fine and no pain later on so he is seemingly overreacting but it is very scary at the time. He was also fine with dh this morning and even later in the evening.

Is this just messing about gone wrong? It's dh's reactions which have got me. If I hurt my child by accident I would rush to help. If I had lost my temper, I may be too angry to do anything or flooded with guilt. The weird thing is that ds2 is dh's favourite (he's extremely clever and very sporty, just v talented all round) and we have had many talks about him not 'favouritising' ds2. Dh is not English and comes from a family where children were hit. I have not spoken to dh since last night. I told him to get out of the house straight afterwards (he didn't) and was shouting at him. I feel so upset just remembering it all and I genuinely don't know what to do. I did not speak to Dh about last Sunday. I was quite ill at the beginning of the week, and tend to go to bed quite soon after he gets in from work anyway, and by Thursday which was the first opportunity we had to talk, I had either forgotten or blocked it out of my head. I have not dh's perspective on any of this, but equally he has not spoken to me.

Please advise. I will try and answer questions as best as I can.

FAIRYFRETGNIKCUF I pretty much doubt that this is a new thing, I believe there is much more than OP isn't telling us.

Hope your call tonight gives you the perspective and strength you and your children need

Joysmum judging by her attitude she will minimize it all to her ''qualified'' friend so it will get her nowhere. She will not tell her friend what she has posted on here as she will be too ashamed, because she knows it is all so seriously fucked up and she is allowing it. The ONE person that can help these poor children and she is allowing it, covering up and protecting the abuser but it is ok because he doesn't do it to her, so that's just fine. So far.

Cake, you really have absolutely no idea what I will tell my friend. You're making all sorts of assumptions about me, and once again based on no facts. You actually sound like a very angry person. In some ways I would call what some of you have been doing to me, quite abusive. This is why I don't come to relationships very often but I really did want to clarify my thoughts on this situation, and I'm still glaf I came despite the verbal thrashing and character assassinations from a few of you. Why I would bother not telling it all or telling lies is beyond me. Is all anonymous after all. Fwiw I am about to speak to friend and tell her exactly what I've said here. She is very outspoken and so not hold back on her professional opinion. I think the thread has served its purpose though. I'm not really mentally strong enough to deal with you all especially when I'm trying to deal with this too. Sorry if I've triggered bad memories for those who have been through it.

Don't only respond to me OP which is what you are doing.

I am not generally an angry person but this thread has got me that way. I was ill treated as a child and I am angry for YOUR CHILDREN because my mother did what you are doing. Hiding abuse. Child abuse, any abuse of the vunerable, makes me angry, of course.

You have not been abused on this thread, you have been given what you asked for, another perspective, many many others in fact, all of which you have ignored and some, outright insulted.

Don't give it the poor me bleeding heart routine because all anybody cares about is your childrens welfare.

oh my!! you think MN has been abusive yet you don't seem overly invested in protecting your own sons from abuse.....real abuse that is!

you lady, have your priorities all wrong

are you scared of what people will think? gossip? being on your own? what?

ditch the animal who is kicking your child.....why is he still in the same house as those kids?

You actually sound like a very angry person. In some ways I would call what some of you have been doing to me, quite abusive

^^ You are actually describing your husband, I doubt cake physically abuses her children and competes against young children at birthday parties.. You are in extreme denial

Well done What on keeping your cool and letting your husband know what he is doing is not acceptable and a police matter if anything like it ever happens again.

You are starting to see things for what they are, you've confronted your DH and are confiding in a friend in real life. So much has happened in the past 24 hours and you've found your teeth.

It is a process to tease out what is normal and what is not acceptable when you've been so used to things as YOUR normal. You know your normal isn't acceptable and your DS needs protecting.

It is a process for those of us who have been in unhealthy and/or abusive relationships to realise that's what it is. You're getting there. Block those who are more focused on attack and blame than supporting you as you'll need support in what's to come. This is just the start for you in making the changes you need to for the kids and it won't be easy.

I hope your call went well and you are continuing in the process of realisation and understanding the practicalities of how to make the changes you need to.

I have no personal axe to grind, but surely there is a very clear and obvious difference between a parent who uses smacking as a discipline tool (for cultural reasons or whatever) and a parent who loses his cool and hits or pushes his child in an unsafe situation (tile floor) because he cannot bear to lose?

With the first, you might disapprove but you wouldn't have safety concerns. With the second, it's less clearcut. The very least I would expect to reassure me would be clear signs that he understood why this is worrying and was prepared to put the thoughts of the children's welfare before other considerations. Is that what he is doing, OP?

I think his response is what worries me the most, the lack of empathy and understanding about it. Someone with a reasonable mature level of understanding would be embarrassed and mortified and trying to put things right and apologise and even more so if they have been at the receiving end of harsh discipline

That alone really concerns me and would a safeguarding professional. It's called insight. He doesn't seem to possess much of it. It's not always something you can develop either if you are ingrained in some behaviour

Anyone would be looking for
Mistake/error of judgment + realisation = changing, learning outcomes, insight

Instead you have
Loss of control + being reprimanded by you = more anger

Sorry but it's abuse. He has hit your son twice. That's not ok.

^^ You are actually describing your husband I doubt cake physically abuses her children and competes against young children at birthday parties You are in extreme denial

Well Lobster I may have wrestled the pass the parcels off them all a few times at their parties ... I have given my DC the absolute opposite of my upbringing. Probably in some peoples eyes, too much so. Lots of love and always told they are loved and how proud we are of them and never smacked, lots of material things but they have not become materialistic and are very well mannered. They take no nonsense from others and never have, I made sure that nobody would ever treat them badly, no matter how old. I became the mum I would have liked and with DH, the family I so badly wanted as a child. Nobody ever stood up for me or my sister so I made sure my DC would never feel anything like we did.

Your DC will never forget how they felt growing up OP.

Good conversation with my friend. As a friend she was v concerned about dh and what is going on there. Said his behaviour is unacceptable and v serious. Also pointed to the lack empathy being v concerning. Said I need to sort help to start this weekend and he needs to start dealing with it asap.

In terms of safeguarding she said that sadly this is really very low level. If it came out at school, they would get us in for a chat, clarify what happened and possibly refer to SS for help but not protection (although probably not even that) . She said there is no way they would remove them for this.

Remember to stay safe yourself. Based on your post of 9.02, he sounds like the kind of man whose behaviour could escalate - the kind of person that you can never really predict what they will do next.

You sound relieved

Like you can all just carry on

The only reaction you've had from 'him' is when you mentioned the police!!!

What your friend is saying is bullshit.

It is a safeguarding issue and SS will get involved regardless. If you don't sort it out as in husband stops this behaviour and you don't protect they can be removed for their safety.

The quiet crying your DS did, when pushed off the sofa, seems that he didnt want you to hear him & you find out what his dad did to him

Said I need to sort help to start this weekend and he needs to start dealing with it asap.

Has she given you any ideas as to what form this help might take?

Some of the posters on here are so angry with the OP - why?

It is the case that men are prone to violence and control in domestic situations - some in small ways, some in medium sized ways, some in big ways. It is a continuum. Some men don't do it at all but many men are prone to that sort of behaviour. They are socialsed to see power as very important and socialised to see families as domestic units of why their rightful place is at the head; and to enforce that, sometimes, in very unhealthy ways.

Meanwhile, women are socialised to see relationships with men as very precious and important.

when a man's behaviour tips over from "just being a man" into what our (who is "our"?) culture currently deems to be unacceptable, in very small ways, it is a process for a woman to come to terms with what the new reality is and what needs to be done. Perhaps she can draw boundaries and say "here, now, for me, in this culture, this is not acceptable to me" (although maybe this is how her father and his father were). That can work. Or perhaps it won't, and deeper changes have to be made to the family structure.

But don't all be howling like it is some weird atrocious anomaly that a woman has a man in her house who pushes people around and gets angry when he is challenged. come on. Come the fuck on. Like it is something wrong with her?

I was born and brought up in the UK and was a child in the 70s and 80s. When I was at primary school, the cane was still legal and there were kids in my class who were hit routinely at home by their parents with implements. There were older boys (brothers of my friends) who did brawl with their dads. Male power struggles were enacted physically. This was normal. Many of my friends and their mums were scared of the dad of the house. I went to many houses to play where the atmosphere changed as soon as he walked in and I picked up the cue that we were all now walking on eggshells. I saw kids pushed about by their dads in anger then just pick themselves up and play as if nothing had happened - as soon as they were out of range of him.

I am not saying any of this is ok. I am saying that the reaction of the posters on this thread who are howling at the OP as if she has done something wrong, as an individual, are ignoring centuries and millennia of standard male behaviour. stop harassing this poor woman, who has seen things that she knows are not right and is working to address them.

I think that there is a deep undercurrent of denial of male violence (and emotional abuse) in society. And the form that it takes on mn is an angry insistence that men like this are an anomaly and that women who find themselves with one must suddenly act swiftly to excise this unclean thing from their lives, or be ostracised from the community. I would guess a huge proportion of the women on mn are living in unequal relationships with men and they need to name these situations as OTHER and get vocally outraged about them in order to enact some sort of psychological purge on their own situations

Ok so your friend is telling you it is unacceptable too.

You've told you husband it is unacceptable. Have you explained what he should be doing in these situations? How he shouldn't be play fighting as he can't control himself and goes to far. How he can remove himself from the situation and get you instead. He needs to learn parenting techniques.

You now also need to be absolutely clear on what is abuse or even just bad parenting and a plan of what you will do should he lay a hand on your kids again or start on psychological abuse. Know your rights and how to seperate. Make sure you call 101 if anything else happens, speak to the school and social services too. Let your kids know what is and is not acceptable.

I hope this doesn't happen again but all too often it does, and will ramp up as the kids get older and more physically mature. You need to step up and get to a stage where you can get rid.

Maudlin your post is so many degrees of fucked up its hard to know where to start.

I think that there is a deep undercurrent of denial of male violence (and emotional abuse) in society. And the form that it takes on mn is an angry insistence that men like this are an anomaly

Denial of male violence actually takes the form of posts like yours implying that it is part of the patriarchal wallpaper and 'just being a man'.

It's not normal for men to kick kids. It's not. Not matter what violence you grew up with, nor how many people got caned in the 70s. It's not normal and not acceptable. And saying so is not 'howling'. It's just stating a fact.

As per the OP, the friend is right it's unacceptable and very serious, but she's not right that it's a 'low level'. If school or GP find out they will be obliged to refer to SS for safeguarding full stop.

I personally did not grow up with any violence. There was none in my house.
I am not remotely saying it is ok to kick kids. I am saying that there is an irrationally angry response against the OP in this thread, and many like it.

Gloria, do you work in child protection?

Also, how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Actually, gloria there's a lot of truth in that post. I'm inclined to agree with you