"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Monte yep absolutely get the envy thing.
2 emotions that I believe my F feels for me are envy and hate. Such taboos in our society, nobody believes it!
Envy - my happy marriage, home, children. My ability to turn my hand to new jobs/skills.
Hate - in a narcissistic misogynistic way. Also I won't play ball and he knows I'm onto him. Imagine some if it is also projection & mother issues.
Basically he's fucked up.

pithivier that is actually awful! How horrible for her/him!

Monte
if I find out I'm having a girl I swear to be a different mum than she was. Gosh it sounds petty doesn't it.

Not at all, it sounds like you've taken a set of bad experiences and you're going to turn them to the good. Girls need someone to help them with all that stuff, it's a really sensitive time of life and I just don't get why a parent wouldn't help out with it. (My mother is the engulfing type so she had a lot to say about bras and periods and stuff, none of it very helpful. I hope to do better.)

Regarding envy, my mother's a covert narcissist so all my life it's been "my daughter is so amazing, she's achieved all these brilliant things" to other people while at home she was often trying to sabotage me. Oh, the dramas she used to create whenever I had exams coming up! I studied in libraries from age 15 on to keep out of her way, and on holidays I'd stay up studying/writing till 3am, then slept till 2, so she couldn't derail me coming in for little chats and asking for cups of tea and having a go at me for something I'd said 2 weeks ago or whatever.
I got married quite young and so because she only ever saw me with DH, I dealt with her public persona for years. Par for the course she was always delighted with any good luck we had but I noticed that as we got a bit better off she was increasingly angry around us with no trigger. We had lots of these incidents where she'd e.g. offer insist on cleaning and later I'd find something broken and left hanging dangerously, and other things like that. It was like she was trying to provoke a fight, basically. It was all deniable stuff - I think she wanted me to have a go at her and then she would be able to pretend to herself that she hadn't done it deliberately, so she could go home nursing a sense of being hard done by that was actually caused by jealousy. I might have had a bit of sympathy but she'd been offered promotion at her work countless times and turned it down. Fairly classic covert N.

pithivier that must have been awful but it's an awesome story. Bloody hell!

Frith is this comment going to be the straw that broke the camel's back, do you think? It sounds like it. It might not be the biggest thing she's ever done but it's so utterly, utterly unkind to say something like that. It's horrible.

@bethanycourt I agree with pp my mother behaved appallingly at my wedding telling everyone I was acting like a bridzilla (I wasn't) refused to help me get dressed and cried on the way to the church because I didn't tell her she looked nice before we left and then had the mother of all breakdowns in the car park of the venue as our guests were leaving the day after

If I was to do it all again with the benefit of hindsight I'd elope have someone I trusted (bridesmaids maybe) to run interference narcs can't stand not being the center of attention

Have a much longer post on the way but,

*@toomuchtooold
*
Haven't tried any of the CD based mindfulness solutions but have tried many ipad based ones, free and bought. Sadly they all seem to focus on breathing, didn't help at all.

I was taught self-hypnosis at 18/19 and in a whim tried it since Christmas after a particularly bad panic attack. Found a large amount of relief - bizarre as to enter a hypnotic state breathing needs to be controlled. Likely worked as I always felt in control.

That said, finding a hypnotist to trust is a minefield. Mine was also a college lecturer who I became very good friends with who taught me "off-book". Needless to say, nobody should attempt self-hypnosis on the back of Internet postings, although there are some good introductory books available.

Meh, that likely wasn't helpful!

Hello, am new to this thread. A text I sent my DM tonight clearly puts across some of the dynamics of our relationships...Hello Mum. I understand that you are wanting an apology in order for us to move on. It was a horrendous phone call, so painful with nothing resolved. I do feel the conversation was damaging and am not really sure what to do next. I don't want to hurt you or cause you heartache but seriously wonder whether less contact would be better for both of us? I really, really struggle to understand your behaviour but do know that whilst Dad, sister and I take comfort in being in our old little family situation (as dysfunctional as it is) you can't bear it and feel it restricts and wears you down so try to avoid it. I hate how you see us all as troubled and everything being our fault without taking any responsibility yourself. I find this very hurtful. I find it very difficult to accept your comments about the children being unwelcome because of their behaviour when with me. Whether we are fat, thin, good or badly behaved we are still your family and that should matter the most. So that's where I am right now, not at all at peace :( x

I posted this is AIBU when fc301 mentioned this thread...
My Mother is a most definitely a narcissist. We've had problems for years and have the pattern of getting on for a few weeks then having a disagreement. Recently my Sister (she is 34 and single) has had a benign Brain rumour removed. She is recovering and doing well after 5 years of severe depression which has alleviated since having op. My Mother however is in martyr mode, she is worn out from the last few years and cannot cope she says. My sister has been living with her the last 2 months. My Dad cares for his Mum and lives with her. I have my DH and 2 autistic children. Sister and Mother stayed with me over Christmas, sister stayed longer as did not want to go back to Mums. Apparently Mum went to hit her one day. Sister was vile to Mum day after op so Mum was equally vile back. I was appalled at the contempt I saw between them and the lack of care and compassion my Mum showed. She didn't help my sister manage her medication or comfort her when she was pacing at night, unable to sleep. My Mum has lived alone for 10 years and has severe OCD. My sister is severely restricted in where she can go in house, when she can have shower, not allowed heating on too long- the list goes on. When my sister went back to Mums, an hour's drive away my Dad came to get her, Mum ordered that sister was fed and to stay with Dad as she would be out until 6. She was seeing a guy she occasionally sees. In the argument I had with my Mum recently when I said that I didn't feel welcome in the family home she said that the children need more discipline and I allow them to jump on furniture etc and it is too much for her to have my family of four there. I just feel so angry with her over the treatment of my Sister and for this comment. I want her to fuck off to the other side of fuck not apologise!!! AIBU?

Welcome cheekymonk x

Well done for being bravely honest with her. Going forward you will be glad that you have stated those things. Probably unlikely that you will get a positive response but I hope I'm wrong.
To be clear you do not need to apologise /accept responsibility in order to move on.

I've got no response- the classic sign of it not pleasing dm! Thanks fc301 x

I read The Emotionally Absent Mother by Jasmin Lee Cori which helped me to understand the needs / repercussions for children.

Is it ok if I join and ask a question?

I've had a very difficult relationship with DM since late childhood and I'm 50 now. I live a long way away from her, and it makes it much more tolerable but something happened recently that has made me rethink. Basically, I don't want to carry on with it as it is because it makes me unhappy and very stressed.
Since the thing happened, i haven't spoken to DM at all. I'm aware that this makes her worse and puts an even greater burden on DB, which i feel very guilty about as he finds her hard going too.
There are 4 problems:

1. She doesn't respect me.
2. Her behaviour really gets to me, its like a dog-whistle.
3. She has such a low opinion of herself that she doesn't realise that she has the capacity to impact on others, so there's no filter.
4. She is extremely bitter.

I can't carry on like this. Its casting a big shadow over me. So, I am thinking of calling her and trying to explain to her how I feel and how things have got to change. She can't change her opinions but she can change her behaviour to me. In particular, I don't want her to say vitriolic things to me whether they are about me, or about anyone else. If she has nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all.
Also, she must stop immediately with sharing her criticisms about me and my family with other people, especially my siblings.
I want to be able to end phone calls when I want to end them, not be held hostage on the phone for hours at a time.
I'd like her to think about this and come back to me. If she agrees, then we can go forward. If she doesn't, then I will cut contact.

Could this approach work?

I have serious doubts she will allow me to say more than 5 words without interrupting to throw accusations at me, and probably accuse me of being unreasonable in upsetting her. So, I was thinking of writing it, but if I do that I'll list some of the more nasty things she's said about other people as examples to stop her showing those people the letter.
Any thoughts?

It's interesting to hear your experiences Steve. I think I'd probably do better with a teacher too. I'd need to find one who wasn't too happy clappy though, you know? I know that meditation's supposed to make you look at the world with gentle loving humour but I have trouble trusting people who don't have a bit of an edge. Probably speaks volumes eh

cheekymonk welcome!

It sounds like she's been awful to your sister - how does your sister feel about all of that? Could you tackle your mother together? In your position I would worry that if I fought my sister's battles my mother would start triangulating (telling one person one thing and the other something different, to try and set you against each other) and I'd end up the bad guy.
Regarding whether you're welcome in her house, and about the kids jumping on the furniture - this is really hard. Am I right in thinking that as your kids are autistic, you have to actively manage their moods and behaviour, and you have to accept a certain level of disruptive behaviour as inevitable? And your mother doesn't want to deal with that. (If she's anything like my mother, she'll doubt the autism diagnosis, preferring to blame you/your kids when their behaviour isn't what she wishes. My mother believes that all illnesses and conditions that other people have are either our fault or something that can be cured if she shouts at you loud and long enough). To be fair to her, I can imagine that having kids running about the house when she has severe OCD must be really difficult for her. Has she ever sought treatment for her OCD?

It sounds like you want her to be a caring mum and she's not being like that. I'm guessing these recent things are fairly typical, but you're reaching breaking point with her. You can't change her, you can only change your own behaviour and how you respond to her. I think your idea of LC is a good one.

One more comment, IDK if this will be helpful... what I notice in your text is that there aren't many specifics. You talk about a damaging conversation and your dysfunctional family setup, and you talk about how your mother "sees you all as troubled". I mean clearly your mother knows the context of all those comments but my worry is that if she wants to, she can misinterpret it all and take it the wrong way and pretend you're annoyed about something totally reasonable she's done rather than some of the things she's done that are really unkind. Then the argument just carries on. I wonder if it would help to be more specific in what your issues are? "I was hurt when you did so-and-so" or "I'd like you do so-and-so", that sort of thing. Just a thought.

Can I pop in for a bit? Have come to the realisation that after always thinking my father was 'difficult' he's a narcissist - can be superficially nice but thinks only about himself and can be very cold and hurtful.

I've had an alright relationship with my mother which has faded a bit over the past few years. She was usually the peacemaker in the family.

Massive family row recently after my brother and I tried to raise some issues with them to try and improve our relationship... a sit down here's what's been happening, this is how we feel, this is how it could improve, we want to all get on better.

We've had dramatic tears, scapegoating of me for upsetting my mother, refusing to engage with our issues, been told they're ashamed of us and we're cruel, denying all responsibility and refusing to apologise for anything.

This isn't normal is it? Families should be able to raise issues and deal with them? I'm torn between feeling terribly guilty for all the upset and then feeling like I need to go LC. I don't know where to go from here.

I could never confront mother about anything @CaptainWarbeck for the very same reason. She genuinely believed that she was not cruel or heartless. That everything she did was for our own good. On the very few occasions that I would stand up for myself, she would take to her bed for days. One day when I was 12, I spent the whole morning at school in tears. I could not tell any one the reason which was this, from my dad.

"Try not to upset your mother, I think she is heading for a nervous breakdown. She says she wants to kill herself"

I so wish MN was around when I was younger. It might have given me the courage and support to walk away. As it was I spent 65 years as her whipping girl.

Thanks toomuchtooold. My sister complains about my Mum a great deal and then When I confront my DM, backs away and tries to make peace with DM. So I do end up being the bad guy. This time however, even without my sisters comments I have seen for myself the lack of care which is why I have been more passionate.
Yes I understand what you mean about needing to be more specific in giving examples with my DM. Usually she doesn't remember what I am talking about or complains about me bringing up the past. When I explained that I couldn't give her the adoration she needs she said that I could stop analysing her!

Dear Cheekymonk i have not replied sooner, as i have needed some time to process and digest your very intense text that was sent last night. I am deeply saddened and sorry that you feel the way you do about me, and it cannot be resolved with a text or a phone call. This needs to be sorted maturely and sensibly, and i think we need to meet up, to talk it through. When that will be, i will leave with you Cheekymonk but sooner rather than later i think x;-(

Reply received from text I sent...

I am deeply saddened and sorry that you feel the way you do about me

That's not an apology. "Sorry you feel that way" never is. It's not owning up to any bad behaviour, just placing the responsibility back on you as the one with the feelings.

The rest basically translates as "I'll give you the silent treatment till you feel guilty, then you can contact me directly and I can shout at you." "Maturely and sensibly" = I want you to feel like a naughty child, because this makes you easier to control.

Hi Cheekymonk

That is in no way any sort of an apology. Such people are infact incapable of apologising.

It is the usual sort of passive aggressive non apology from a narcissist.

It is also not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

Does anyone recognise this dilemma:
I feel like I need to get it resolved, but my head is saying that it takes two and the other person doesn't even think they've done anything wrong. Nothing has ever worked, so why not just give up and forget about it before its been a black shadow over my whole life, rather than just most of it? i keep telling myself that this is the sensible thing to do, but I'm really struggling with the forgetting about it and I keep thinking "what if I say this, or do that? But I knwo its all been tried many times and nothing works because DM won't stop being abusive.

I just re-read the OP, and I recognise most of the parental reactions. I've heard most of them many times (apart from "sorry"). I recently was confronted with a new one though: DM was shouting at me, whilst i sat quiet trying to ignore her. She kept going and I finally snapped. I asked her how dare she speak to someone like this? Then she sat down and started to cry so it became about her upset and she said "I'll never forget this".
I took it as a threat (what else?) and 40 years of anger came tumbling out.

Attila and too much too old- thank you both for your insight! My first reaction was ' yes you want it face to face because you know I am weakest in that position'. You are both absolutely spot on. I haven't replied yet. I want to say that I don't feel ready for a face to face confrontation, I am enjoying the distance. I drove to work this morning and felt hugely liberated. My sister says I need my Mum but I don't feel that. This thread is fantastic, am trying to read through it all x

Do you mind if I tag along for the links? Especially the one about abusive grandparents.

I've got myself fairly well sorted after being NC, and 3 years with a damn good psychologist. DD s were never exposed to my toxic parents, but DH is about to start therapy next week. He won't thank me for telling "the world" about his problems, but I think he is close to cutting contact with his parents. I doubt he will ever be able to confront them.

I'm sorry that so many of us have had abusive childhoods and also glad to see that many are recovering.

I've had a bit of a revelation, and it turns out not to be bad news: my mother doesn't love me! Suddenly, the way she treated me all makes sense and I feel free.
With DC of my own, I've often struggled to understand how anyone can behave like that to an innocent child, but, the realisation that she didn't love me makes sense of it.
Obviously, its sad for the little girl that I was, but I'm grown up now, so I think it means I can just get on with my life without looking back or feeling like I have a duty to her in her old age.