"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Magic I've found long distance walking to be a great help, when I could do it - West Highland Way, thst sort of thing. Also very heavy gardening. Gaming: Minecraft and the Portal games, and Skyrim. Baking annoying fiddly things like meringues. Watching anything written by Sally Wainwright, although Happy Valley might be quite triggering (I found it cathartic).

Are you in therapy? You need someone to tell you it's not your fault. Because it's not, but you've been carrying this burden for so long and with no respite, as a kid. It is their fault. You're a good person, a strong person to have survived, and it is their fault and not yours what all happened. I don't know how you feel about that but for me it almost seemed too good to be true. But it is true.

Hi, just wanted to update. I've decided to do an evidence video about what happened with my father. I still don't want to but if I don't then my brothers will twist it and make me look terrible. My father will also look worse if I let my brothers raise the issue and I want to limit whatever damage there is. My friend says it's inevitable that it would have to be discussed anyway because it's in my medical notes, which will be read by both the defence and the prosecution, so it's better if I raise it.
I feel dreadful about it, but if I don't do something I am powerless again. The guilt is horrible but the alternative could be worse :(

Pulya you're being really brave, it must be so hard. Well done, for what it's worth. Do you know when the video will be done? I hope it's soon, so you can get it over with.

Magic, I was going to say, on the guarantor thing - would your father then have the option to withdraw from being your guarantor during your tenancy? Be really careful - you don't want to end up in the situation that he can basically make you homeless on a whim. Sorry, I know your current living situation is shit, that doesn't help does it?
(Also both to magic and teabags, just my 2p, but my opinion on gifts is that if they are actually useful and the only strings they come with are imagined obligations of gratitude, just take the bloody thing and leave the strings at the door. If the gift requires you to stay in contact or be on their car insurance or something, say no. It is OK to be hard headed about it.)

Thanks for replying Toomuch, I feel dreadful but proud of myself for making the decision to do it. There's got to come a point where I decide to take control. It may even work out better for my father, it will be far worse for his reputation if my brothers try to use it in their defence, which I suspect they will try anyway. It's a relief to have made a decision, I know he'll be arrested and that is bothering me, it will be a huge disgrace to him. No idea when the video will be, I just messaged her and said I was willing to do it. I just wish I didn't feel such guilt for alerting the authorities and knowing what they could do to him :(. I'm terrified he will kill himself, because it feels like I will have murdered him :(

I don't know what the comment that was deleted said, but if you can't be empathic or kind please don't comment on threads like this, it is used as a safe space by many people. If you knew the feelings that others and myself face and endure, I can't imagine what you would gain as a person from being deliberately unhelpful. Very distasteful, just like others I am here for much needed support.

Ignoring James/Jamie ...

Pulya, well done for pushing ahead. It must feel terrifying but you're doing the right thing.

My husband worries his dad will kill himself over a similar dynamic (not sexual abuse though).

The thing is - it's really, really unlikely. Delusion and denial are more likely, no matter what.

If, and it's a big if, if he ever killed himself, it is his decision. It is not yours and you are not to blame. Same as you weren't to blame for how many kids he had, what house he bought, what he chooses to do with his time, which brand of toothpaste he prefers.

He's an adult in charge of his own life, who knows his own feelings, and he's responsible for his own actions, which included assaulting you.

I know it's easier to say that from the sidelines - but I urge you to try and keep repeating to yourself that it's not your fault or responsibility.

Thinking logically - is there ANYTHING your kids could do which would drive you to suicide, where you'd blame them?

I'm guessing not because you're a loving mum and they're probably not enmeshed in you the way you are with him.

Also I hope you know again that anytime you needed to talk, the Samaritans are always a good call.

Don't let this bastard threaten you in your own head with something you have no control over whatsoever.

First counselling Thurs... am so apprehensive, scared and fearful. After so many years of everything being shut away I shall be encouraged to get it all out.

Thoughts of seeing a bloke aren't convincing, high chance I will clam. Feel on the verge of panic attacks.

Fucking Christmas too, detest it. Abuse at Christmas and birthday really sticks in the memory.

Have started drafting some notes. If I do clam, I can blankly hand them over I guess.

Thinking of you all at this time of year. Be kind to yourselves x

Hi everyone, I dont know if you remember me? Ive not posted in a while, I found it hard to keep up and felt guilty not replying to everyone or for not having anything decent to say......but I just need to be a part of a group that understands so Im back.

No contact started over a year ago, but I did see her 3x but not seen her since may. I heard from my dad a few months ago who phoned drunk and crying (alcoholic) about my brother being put in prison for domestic abuse (it was a brief stay for breaking a restraining order) which i tried to support my dad and help but then didnt hear from him again after that including on 2 of my childrens birthdays. I know im better off away from him as well but I always felt loved by him so that hurt. Also recieved a half arsed text saying i dont know if this is the righr number but i miss you all, i assume this was from my mother but I havent changed my number in about 10 years....... anyway just cant believe how easy its been to cut her off and how i lost all my family in the process. And Im also fed up with how I am good for a while then I go downhill again. Hoping being back here will help with that. Hope everyone is doing ok xxx

Thanks Klassy. I'm used to unkindness, especially regarding this situation with df. I didn't actually see the comment which was made, I wouldn't be surprised if one of my horrible family were responsible for it. Thanks so much for supporting me. I would write more but I feel terrible, both physically and mentally.

No idea what they said either, could have been spam links TBH as that sometimes happens.

Do your relatives know you're on Mumsnet/know your username?

Just keep going, all you ever have to do is get through the next 60 seconds. Deep breaths and we're here for you

Steve best of luck for tomorrow. I hope you do get something out of it at least.

Atlas it'll take time to grieve for your family, it's like a bereavement in a lot of ways. I think the up down is natural in that way. Hope you feel better soon anyway.

Pulya, what classy said. Your dad's actions are his own, then and now. It's not your fault. Jesus, can you imagine? I've had low points, I've had suicidal thoughts and it's been the thought of the kids that's put a stop to all that. I only sometimes feel guilty for having had kids knowing I've suffered from depression, maybe it was irresponsible... I didn't realise when I was having my kids though, I didn't have a name for what's wrong with my mother or what happened to me so I blundered into parenthood.

Anyway I hope you all get a bit of sleep tonight and the morning brings better things for us all. I'm still trying to shake off the actual cold and flu at the same time which with mild asthma on top is interesting. Double dose of inhaler and codeine tonight.

Pulya - just wanted to add to what toomuch said. Your dad has to remain accountable. I've had suicidal ideation, periods of self-harm, before I started realising how fucked up my childhood was.

Yet I remain accountable, the kids and DW saved me and they have never known, and I don't foresee sharing it with them unless my counsellor/another has a compelling reason. It is what it is.

Hi all,

Hope you don't mind me coming to you for a little perspective? I've posted briefly on past stately homes threads about my difficult relationship with my mother, and its impact on the rest of my life. Things have taken a bit of a turn for the worst again recently, and I feel like I'm struggling to keep my head above water with her.

Bit of background: "D"M and DF separated 14 years ago after DF had an affair with OW who is now Step Mum, they have one DS together who is my half bro. I get it, that was a proper shit thing to do, but it can't be undone now. "D"M has never got over this (despite them being at each others throats for 7 years before their separation and eventual divorce), and refuses to see that clinging on to this rage and bitterness is unhealthy. At the time of their separation I was 14, and she stopped contact the second she found out that half brother was on the way (I was almost 15 by this point). She's threatened suicide, and is prone to bilious outbursts about DF, his family in general etc at the drop of a hat. She spouts on and on about how they've taken everything from her, etc etc (by everything she means me, because I'm apparently a possession). I've kept in contact with my DF, which she was unaware of until Feb 2016 when she went on a 7 day screaming, crying rage fest.

I'm literally at my wits end with her now, am I being cruel and unreasonable to want to have a relationship with my DF and his family? I'm being railroaded by "D"M and her flying monkeys (namely my female cousin on DM's side), I couldn't even invite my DF to my very small wedding on October because she threatened to kill herself, or show up and make a big scene, or ruin it in some way, she contacted every guest and told them she was uninvited and made a huge scene anyway. She's now started threatening me with my hypothetical child(ren), stating that if she finds out that I've let DF and his family be around my as yet unconceived child(ren) then she'll burn our house down.

This isn't me right? This is not normal behaviour! Please tell me I'm not the mad one in this equation?

How can I escape this nightmare??? Everytime I go LC she sends the monkeys swooping in, gets on the jungle drums to the rest of the extended family and makes me feel terrible. They're constantly threatening to report me to my regulator (I'm a health care professional)for being "mentally unstable" because I won't stop seeing/communicating with my Dad and his family.

Thanks toomuch. I just dont want to live like this forever, shes stollen enough of my life. It is sometimes anger but its the guilt that I find the hardest. I keep telling myself she hasn't even tried so clearly isnt that bothered, bloody noticed home alone had a part about an estranged dad and made it seem so trivial and easy. Funny how things like that stand out now. Hope you feel better soon xxx

pulya agreeing with toomuch, also been suicidal and its my kids that pull me through that (even though i thought theyd be better off without me at the time). No loving decent parent would put that on their child! Toomuch I also feel guilty for having kids, and honestly dont think i would have had them had i realised before what was up with my family and myself. But at the same time having them is what helped me realise and what pulled me through. Just hope everyday they havent been messed up by things....which brings me back to being suicidal, you protect your kids from stuff like that as you would rather feel the pain than them!

serioussteve my husband and kids have never known that I have wanted to either. Hope your counselling goes well. Notes are a good idea, So hard to actually talk about it, so many different things and places to start. But once you get going Im sure it will be ok.

orangesox um this is definitely not normal behaviour, she sounds insane! Please do not have these hypothetical children anywhere near her! Yes your dad did a bad thing but it was many years ago now and not your fault and you have a right to a relationship with him and his family without any drama! Honestly cant see how you can remain in contact with her. And as for the suicial threats I think several posters have covered here that loving parents do not put that on their children, its just an attempt to get her own way, I highly doubt she actually would! Sorry Im not much help Im sure someone will be along with some good advice soon xxx

How can I escape this nightmare??? Everytime I go LC she sends the monkeys swooping in, gets on the jungle drums to the rest of the extended family and makes me feel terrible. They're constantly threatening to report me to my regulator (I'm a health care professional)for being "mentally unstable" because I won't stop seeing/communicating with my Dad and his family.

ornagesox

You've tried low contact and it has not worked out. I would actually go no contact with your mother now and all the flying monkeys that have been manipulated to do your mother's bidding. Block them all from your life. These flying monkeys are only acting in their own interests, certainly not yours.

I would also think your employer's regulatory body (if they did bother to report you that is which they won't likely do, its just another threat to control you and get their own way) would tell them to stop wasting their time. Its really an empty threat. If you are that worried though I would contact your union if you are one of their members.

Sincere thanks to all of you.
Klassy, thanks so much for all your support. Last time I confronted him by letter and his response was that he didn't know how he was going to live with himself from that point onwards and my whole family ganged up on me and blamed me for turning my father into a suicidal recluse. I won't let that impact me the same way this time but the memory has scarred me. My family aren't the mumsnet type, but I suppose one of them could have a friend on here.......if that's the case, my story could out me. Stuff them! I'd rather feel shame at being abused than for defending that type of behaviour.
Toomuch, although depression makes you ill, it also makes you a more empathic character, better able to recognize such issues with DCs. You sound like a lovely person, I'm very grateful to you.
Serious, thank you for sharing with me. If the child is indeed the father of the man, then it's no wonder we've faced such terrible consequences in adult life. DW is lucky to have you, such strong bonds don't come along often.
Atlas, you're absolutely right, I think he was seeking to make me seem accountable for his potential death as some sort of revenge. I think you need to focus on the grieving process to allow yourself to realize that it's far better than leaving it and having to explain all the issues to your children. I know how horrible the grief and guilt are, but it's better than the alternative.
Orange, life is too short to be involved with all that trauma and chaos. Please focus on your feelings and don't expose yourself or your family to this damaging situation.
Attila, I'vè been there and it's dreadful. They're stalking you and harassing you, I think you should consider police involvement.
Hope everyone has a safe and peaceful day :)

Bumping this for Caro and anyone else.

Hi, I just found this thread and have spent an hour reading it so far. I am struggling a lot with my relationship with my mother and don't know how to fix it. Just thinking about her now brings a tension to my gut and I feel guilt mixed with anger etc etc.

Long story short is I feel so let down by her. Starting in childhood when she remarried someone and allowed him to emotionally abuse me. She did not protect me then. I was always told my real dad was useless and my new dad paid for everything and I should be grateful. So there was this thing where I was told I should love someone I really did not love, and made to feel bad for loving someone I really did love (my dad).

I grew very independent as a result of this home situation and in my teens I spent as much time as I could with friends' families. My mother didn't like this.

I left home as soon as I could finish school. I only really began to create a sense of who I was, once I had left home. I don't have many ties to my school days at all, the ties I made after leaving home are the ones which lasted. My friends became my family in many ways.

But still, the family kept up the appearance to everyone that we were all happy and cohesive and doing well. This was always the family presentation. Everything. Is. fine. Extended family were all presented with this picture. My mom
and stepdads work colleagues all received it. Nobody was to know how unhappy things were. I bought into this and didn't ever tell anyone, either. I would hint at it if friends were sharing stuff with me but then feel disloyal - after all my stepdad loved me (I was told, but never sensed) and most important he paid for everything while my real dad had skipped out on his responsibilities.

So fast forward to now and I have three kids. My mother maintains the presentation to all around that she is an adoring granny but the reality is she hardly sees them. She has been of so little help to me when they were smaller, very rarely looking after them. She doesn't call them or have any regular involvement with them although we live in the same town. As a result they do not have much of a relationship with her. To her friends and social media though she's the doting granny. It makes me angry. She could be that person instead of just pretending she is.

Her response would be that it is my fault. That I am so busy she doesn't want to be a nuisance. She never knows when is a good time to call. I'm always so busy.

Still to this day, I never see her without my stepdad. I have realized it is him that she protects above anyone else and to have a relationship with her, I must accept he is always going to be there. I don't ever see her alone because she always brings him. I can't ask her not to because then I am rejecting him and he's "done so much for me and loves me like his own." He doesn't.

I'm putting this out here hoping someone will understand how torn I feel. I am still wanting a relationship with my mother which is real and open but I have come to realize that may never happen. We will keep pretending and then she will eventually pass away and I will feel devastated that we never resolved things, and he will live a bit longer and I will visit him dutifully because to reject him would be rejecting her, but nothing will ever get sorted out.

I guess I'm just tired of feeling bad, like it's me who's failed in this relationship.

Any feedback would be great, because I don't know what to do from here.

Thanks Attila!

You are very welcome Caro

Well Thursdays counselling did not go well, I've been in a state of upset, anger, frustration and confusion since, keep bursting into tears.

I elucidated the sexual abuse in a note I handed over at the start, then regretted doing so immediately. He's a nice guy, I just really think I'm going to struggle opening up past bare bones of anything. Such a deep-seated apprehension and fear of men.

My next appt isn't until Jan so I have a couple of weeks to consider if I want to change to a female. Thinking it's likely I will. He's also a CBT therapist, I expressed concern I need psychotherapy, and have read extensively about EMDR for CUTS and complex childhood trauma. He's made notes and it shall be discussed.

As Christmas time is so very shit anyway, I think I'll be after some benzos from my GP to get through to the next appt. going to be hell.

Best wishes x

Hi Caro,
That's so lousy, I'm really sorry. For your own sake, try to accept your own definition of your relationship with your mother and stepfather, because that's your reality and it's what your children will learn from, even about the expectations and roles of grandparents and adult parent-child relationships. Perhaps your mother is aware of her faiings and that's why she doesn't see you without her husband, incase you challenge her necessary perception of reality. Perhaps you could begin by writing it down and then from that try to define how you want things to be different with your own children. I try to foster warmth between my children by suggesting kindnesses they can perform, or model appropriate reactions for them when they disagree. Beyond that, I would think you need some proper face-to-face support, although Samaritans are very good just for giving you space to let go of difficult feelings. I think if you want to maintain a relationship with her, for which you deserve a medal, you will probably have to base it on superficial subjects and then see if it deepens any after you've undergone some sort of therapy. I do think you will need to do a lot of adjusting and work on how you feel, because this situation is one which suits your mother and so she has no incentive to change it. You are absolutely not responsible for this and I do feel that he is defending her against accusations of poor parenting, you can't challenge her if he's there because of the dynamics and you've been used to thinking his parenting was the issue, when this was compounded by her not defending you and insulting your biological father, who despite his shortcomings is still your father whom you loved.
You're doing really well with your children, she should have helped you but since she didn't, you are the one who'll be able to say that you've raised them and they're your achievement. Best of luck to you Caro, the posters on here will help you. Take care [flowers ]

Serious, you need to bond with your counsellor on some level, otherwise the appointments will revolve around your negative relationship with him, instead of being useful. You don't need to work with someone whose style isn't in sync with yours, the counsellor-client relationship needs to be symbiotic. Please allow yourself to be guided by your instincts, you need to build up faith, trust and confidence in yourself. You will feel angrier and more frustrated if you're trying to resolve important and intensely personal issues with someone you just don't feel comfortable with. Maybe some medicine will help you over Christmas, but perhaps developing some faith in your own feelings and beliefs is equally important. Unfortunately, abuse of any sort detracts from the self-concept and takes time to repair. I really hope you can find a counsellor who suits you, it's extremely important. Look after yourself.