"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I can't sleep. My legs hurt so much and I've been worrying half the night. What if DF commits suicide or tells people things I have confided in him, such as defence solicitors?
That would affect my marriage too, as well as DH. I wish I could rest through the day, but I feel that people will know and judge me harshly, especially DP. Not that he's unkind but he's a workaholic :(

I received this email from my Dad yesterday (parents and I don't really speak), and I don't know what to do with it. I just would like a sense check, is this normal? I sent them early xmas presents and card as I'm moving house this xmas and won't have the time/it will fall to the bottom of the to - do list. There is a long, long back story of them being blackmailing and manipulative, my mother is currently not speaking to me because I forgot to send gifts for their wedding anniversary in the summer, and because I didn't send her flowers when the (new) cat was killed by a car (one of many to have gone this way). Previously they have done odd things like move house without telling me, refuse to speak to me for 6 months because I took the toothpaste from the downstairs bathroom (which mum told me to take, when I was a student and had run out). I left home 18 and they have never once visited me in any place I have lived in, but they constantly expect me to visit them. They don't call me on my birthday, I have to call them. Mother hasn't called me in maybe 3 or 4 (perhaps more) years. They were in my neck of the woods three times this year, but didn't tell me. When I don't do what they want, I am labelled as 'aggressive'. I'm not an aggressive person, I'm just fed up of being ordered around.

Hi Kardashianklone:

Many thanks for the presents they are very much appreciated.

It's a pity you don't get on with your Mum it makes life so difficult for me being in between the 2 of you if you stopped being so aggressive in your attitude towards her I would suggest you came home for Xmas (I would pay the fare).

All you have to do is be nice to her remember if any thing happened to me she would hold the purse strings and at the moment its not looking good on your inheritance prospects.

Sorry if it sounds a bit blunt but you would be a fool to throw it all away.

You will have to let me know what you would like for Xmas, I would give you cash but that you would have to come home for that.

Kardashian

This is nowhere near normal; infact its way off the scale of being anywhere near emotionally healthy for a parent to send this to their adult child.

It is normal for a toxic parent like both your parents to send such to their now adult child/children and what you've received is pretty much typical from such toxic people.

It is not your fault your parents are like this; their own families did that to them.

I would ignore such a hate filled toxic message sent from your toxic father. I note also the references to money and inheritance; such people really do use these as power and control methods to further control their victim with.

Your father is siding with his wife here; a person who he has always put first and foremost in his life and certainly above you. He has also failed you abjectly as a parent. He is truly a weak man who has acted simply out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. There is no apology nor any responsibility for his actions here either.

I would put the e-mail in your trash folder and block his means of contacting you via this method. DO NOT REPLY TO IT - for people like your parents the contact is the reward and answering it at all could open the door to them bothering you even more.

These people bring nothing positive into your lives and you do not owe them anything. You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you got.

I would certainly further lower all contact now down to zero.

Reading "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward could also help you as well.

May I ask why you sent these people a present and card; was it purely out of still feeling obligated?. FOG - fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many damaging legacies such people like your parents leave their now adult children and I would read up on FOG. They will never give you the approval that you may still want from them.

^All you have to do is be nice to her remember if any thing happened to me she would hold the purse strings and at the moment its not looking good on your inheritance prospects.

Sorry if it sounds a bit blunt but you would be a fool to throw it all away.^

wow.

Never, never, never let yourself be bought. It hurts to know that you will be disinherited (I know!) but nothing is worth becoming a shadow dancing on someone else's tune.

And with people who use the inheritance as a threat, there is nothing to say that you can trust them to honour any promise. They can change their minds as soon as you fall out of line over anything. Some people might do so anyway, even if you do everything they demand.

Reality is much more complicated when it's your own parents, whom you love. But really, the only appropriate response to that email is "You can't buy me. Give your money to the cat's home".

Btw true, genuine love that wants the best for the other person would never act like this. This isn't love, it's control.

Is this normal?
No Kardashian, it isn't. I'm sorry, but your FOG and a sense of duty has kept you pandering to these people. What a tough time they have given you!

Pulya, sorry you are feeling anxious again. I wouldn't worry about what he says to anyone. Your partner should understand that DF is capable of twisting everything to cause trouble. Focus on looking after yourself, your DCs, and your relationship with DP. Everything else is someone else's problem! Stay strong!

Kardashian & Attila thank you so much this thread has helped me tonight. I've crawled into bed, feel sad with the world. I have finally given up on both my parents after offering another open door and getting sand kicked in my face again.
Kardashian look at what is NOT in the email - love, concern, interest, ownership. Fuck their fucking blood money, you're worth more than that.

Also I would ask yourself how much of that email she wrote? It might give you an idea of how much you are being manipulated...

Kardashian - my parents were exactly the same, except that my father would never have sent that message. He was, however, weak and controlled by mother. She is very wealthy, and the constant threats of disinheritance were her weapon of choice. It may be of some comfort to know that eventually, they will be old and needy and YOU will be the one with the upper hand. Mother is now 93, widowed, with some dementia but mainly physically disabled. She is confined to a rest home, comfortable and caring, so I know she wants for nothing. But I feel no obligation to visit frequently (I've moved 5 hours away in retirement). I make duty phone calls several times a week, send treats occasionally, but with no filial feelings. I have tried to forgive her the selfishness,abuse, cruelty and neglect, the riding crop hanging by the fireplace, frequently used, the threatening, looming presence and the emotional distance. But I can never forget, and carry the scars of childhood, even in my late 60s. All I feel towards her is a detached sympathy, way less than I would feel for any other old lady confined and frustrated in a carehome. Her behaviour broke up the family, and several of us moved abroad to attempt to escape her - but what we didn't know is that you carry your mother with you. She managed to spend a good proportion of the family money - how on earth does anyone spend millions?? But the remainder is now tucked up in a trust which has secured it for future generations. Keep strong!

kardashian just that email is terrible. Nothing about how much he misses you or how much he wants to hear from you just 'do whatever your mother says regardless of impact on you as it makes my life easier' and blackmailing you with the inheritance. Stay away...far away from them!

Have been lurking on this thread for while.

Really struggling with my situation at the moment. To the extent where I don't actually think there is a way to fix things and I feel like I should have removed myself from life a long time ago because I am completely broken inside.

Grew up with controlling parents and an abusive father - emotionally and physically. He disowned me when I was 14 and we didn't speak for the next 4 years despite living in the same house. Prior to that, he would punish me by deliberately going out in the car and driving round for half an hour, so my mum couldn't take me to my weekly gymnastics lesson (which I adored) and locking me in my bedroom for whole days without access to the toilet. I used to have to pee into a bottle. Can't believe I'm admitting to this. And removing all pleasures from my room, such as my radio and books. And hitting me, kicking me, punching me and one time he had me on the floor with his hand over my mouth to stop me screaming and I genuinely thought I would suffocate.

I should have left home when I was 16 and never returned and never spoke to him ever again. But I was too weak to do that. I had quite severe mental illness, including anorexia, when I was a teenager and I was too scared to leave. I stayed home until I was 21 and gradually I started to tolerate him again but we didn't have a normal father-daughter relationship. I was terrified of him. One time, I broke my hand opening his car door and I thought I had broken the car door and was so scared of telling him. When I realised I had actually broken my hand instead, I felt relief and sat in the car for an hour with him in agony, but completely hiding it from him. My sister has the opposite relationship with him and is his 'princess' and can't put a foot wrong. And she takes advantage of the power she has.

Fast forward and I'm now late 30's. Married for 14 years. Rarely call my mum. Even more rarely call my 'dad'. Visit them at Christmas, birthdays etc but it's very awkward. We don't have a normal relationship. They know nothing really about my life. I don't want to confide in them. I feel extremely angry with myself for having to see them. I wish I could cut them out of my life completely but feel its too late and I should have done it at the time of the abuse, not now.

I feel broken inside. Like child who has never grown up. I hate myself for allowing myself to be treated so badly. I'm scared of people in general, particularly large men. I will never recover from my past. And I feel there is no hope for me. He should have killed me that day he tried to suffocate me. As I think my spirit died that day.

Sorry for the rant.

Newlife - that's such a terrible story, and my heart goes out to you. IMO, if you can finally remove them permanently from your life, perhaps accompanied by a letter letting them know exactly what they have done to you, you will achieve relief from the anxiety of having to meet them. Do you have anyone who can boost your confidence sufficiently to believe that you are worthy of being your own person without reference to your parents, and help you to draft a note? Please get some help and support -it's awful to live your life with such a burden.

Can I just say thank you. It's posts like this that, although are terrifying because there are so many people with similar stories, are really helpful in understanding why I feel the way I do, why I react/act the way I do and that will ultimately help me break the cycle.

My DF was verbally abusive during my childhood and you had to walk on egg shells at all times in case you set him off. He was all bark and no bite I later found out when he threatened me with a cane and I said 'go on then' and he backed down but at a young age I didn't know this. I was terrified of him and my DM made excuses for him all the time. We had to adapt our behaviour to him and his moods. I always thought he hated me and I couldn't do anything right. I moved out at 21 to go to uni and he cried!!! Never been so confused. That was 20 years ago and now I'm golden balls, can't do anything wrong!! Even more confused!!

My DM gets the end of his temper now but it's all shouting. But even now I adapt my behaviour around him, I'm the negotiator, I'm the one who changes the subject to something he'll be interested in to calm him down ffs. I'm a grown ass woman! And to top it off I'm married to a verbally abusive husband! I swore I would never turn out like my dad and I made conscious decisions so that would not happen but I never told myself not to turn out like my mother. Always making excuses to the kids about why they're DF is in a mood!

But threads like this give a lot of insight and my eyes are wide open. Planning an escape strategy 😀 so all good xx Again thank you and thanks for listening xx

Hi all this is my 1st time posting and sorry if it's very long.
Basically I have a narcastic mother I was visiting yesterday with my 10 yo ds. She was in one of her rants about how she was so unwell as she had accidentally banged her knee of the sideboard. She then accused my ds of kicking her leg, he didn't as I was there the whole time I said he never did anything she then started acting like a child saying how everyone blames her and she's always wrong, that she would go to bed. That's when I said I've had enough you're not treating my child like you've treated me all my life and I left. My dad stood there all the time and did nothing as usual.
I'm also 42 and 32 weeks pregnant this is my 8 the pregnancy as I've had 6mmc. Ever since I've announced my pregnancy she's got worse proberly as I'm getting more attention than her as I've been in hospital 3 times with hg.
My Db is nc has been for years and I envy him. She never went to mine or Db wedding we were both adopted at birth so you think she would of treated us better.
My question really us should I go nc as I don't want my ds to witness her he already said she's really nasty .
Sorry for typos on phone

Hi teabagsmummy you did exactly the right thing IMO.
It is quite common for children of narcissistic parents to only put their foot down to the abuse when it starts to affect their OWN children.
I've experienced something similar. I did try to make my DF acknowledge the shitty behaviour. I tried to place boundaries around access to my children (my DH wld always be there, they had to visit us). Sadly all this has been rejected and I am now NC. For me I was adamant that my children would never again witness the constant aggressive denigration of their mother (me).
Your mother has gone one step further by attacking your child (wow).
Concentrate your energies on your own welfare and the happiness of your small family unit, life is short and precious as you well know. Take care.

Another hard process will be accepting that she will NEVER be the mother you DESERVE.

Hope you're doing ok Pulya (and all)

Thanks fc I know your right it's not a heathy relationship for anyone especially my son. I just feel bad my ds won't see his grandad again as he is very good with him, but as long as he enables her behaviour and he will always enable it I can't allow him to see him

My question really us should I go nc as I don't want my ds to witness her he already said she's really nasty .

Yes you should go no contact. Absolutely. These people were not good parents to you and they are awful grandparents figures to your child.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are often long since discarded or are as narcissistic as they are.

Narcissistic women as well always but always need a willing enabler to help them so was not surprised to see that your dad did nothing. These men are really the hatchet man in such families who carry out their wife's bidding to the letter. He would have rather seen you get hurt, he has acted throughout out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has sacrificed your own wellbeing on her alter, he is truly a weak men and such weak men as well often need someone like your mother to idolise.

This link may be helpful to you as well:-

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/no-contact

I've just had the begging text I expected from my dad saying it was a misunderstanding and to phone my mum this afternoon! I said there was no way it was a misunderstanding my child comes 1st and if she want to phone me and apologies I will be in. But there's no way on earth she will ever phone me.
He just replied sorry because there's no way he will of even had a conversation with her about us

newlife

Re your comment:-

"Fast forward and I'm now late 30's. Married for 14 years. Rarely call my mum. Even more rarely call my 'dad'. Visit them at Christmas, birthdays etc but it's very awkward. We don't have a normal relationship. They know nothing really about my life. I don't want to confide in them. I feel extremely angry with myself for having to see them. I wish I could cut them out of my life completely but feel its too late and I should have done it at the time of the abuse, not now"

Its never too late to cut them all off.

I would seek out a therapist to deal with all this (BACP are good) and you may also want to call NAPAC napac.org.uk/ regarding the abuse you suffered also in childhood.

I would also suggest you read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

You do not owe these people a relationship and you do not have to see them ever again.

I would urge you to do your own thing this Christmas, you do not have to see your dysfunctional family of origin. Do not continue your role that they set out for you, drop the rope and detach completely.

You do not need their approval any longer, not that they'd ever give it to you anyway. Your role in that family seems to be one of scapegoat with your sister being the more favoured golden child.

teabagsmummy

Ignore any further telephone call or communiques your parents, particularly your dad, sends you. And you are right, your mother will never apologise.

I can imagine he only sent you that message because he is now in the dog house himself. Serves him right, he has also failed you abjectly as a parent. Neither of them are worthy to tie your shoes.

Attila you are my guru I love all the wisdom you put on these pages.
I haven't worked my mum out yet, can you help?
My DPs married 50 yrs. (D)F massive narcissist. DM his enabler, emotionally unavailable to me. Her mother was narcissistic so I think her marriage feels normal to her. Do you think he has literally sucked up all her resources, attention, love, interest? This year he has literally and physically forced her to choose him over me. Is she just weak, dependant, lacking emotional intelligence or has she also become narcissistic?
She cannot understand emotions, seeks refuge in shopping and work.

Hope it's ok for me to ask for some advice. I posted on here a few weeks ago about my family situation and basically to summarise

• went on holiday in the summer with my DS, parents and sister. A lot of shit hit the fan (my dad verbally attacked and abused me in front of DS), I paid for tickets for myself, DS and sister who also wanted to come home and we left

-since then I've gone low contact with parents and I'm on a waiting list for some counselling about abusive behaviour esp from my dad in the past. I don't currently want to total cut them out of DS' life as I do think they're good grandparents to him and they currently see him for a few hours every couple of weeks.

• Since we got back in the summer my sister has distanced herself from me, literally as soon as we landed at the airport she changed, became hostile and couldn't get away quick enough. She has borderline personality disorder btw, which I haven't actually said before because it's not an official diagnosis as yet but very very much fits.

• after essentially ignoring me for months she asked me to drop DS at my parents' place so she could see him (didn't express any wish to see me).

• I didn't reply and was mulling it over, slightly miffed by her behaviour but she then accused me of using DS as a weapon and said she would use the full extent of the law and social services to get access (this is very much the bpd behaviour).

• since then there hasn't been contact between the two of us but my dad has texted to ask me to make up with her for the sake of Christmas, not that I'm spending it with them but they would like to have DS over for the day to decorate the tree etc and I've said I'm not ok with it if my sister is there, given what she said and the fact that she then sent an email to my parents and me just containing a link to a website about narcissist children turning on their parents.

Anyway I just said that she would need to apologise, to which the response was 'it's up to me to sort it. She always says those things in the heat of moment, she is part of DS' life'. I replied saying it was a very extreme thing to say in the heat of the moment but if that's the case it shouldn't be a problem for her to retract what she said and apologise, that it's not up to anyone to sort out except her really and that I didn't want to discuss it anymore'. My dad texted back to say 'I think you need to reflect carefully and wisely' .

Did I do the right thing or am I just being stubborn? It feels like I'm being painted as the bad guy and manipulated to just 'get over it', but why should I after being threatened with social services and called a narcissist, an apology is not an unreasonable expectation is it? And what does he mean, reflect carefully and wisely? I have, and increasingly finding it obvious that my family are a toxic nightmare with poor boundaries and a weird idea of what constitutes acceptable behaviour.

Another example of my sister's behaviour, a couple of weeks after we had returned from the holiday and she'd very obviously distanced herself she posted the following on Facebook "My family. Mum and dad. My little munchkin [my DS]. My gorgeous guy [name] and our little family. Our dog [name] and rabbit [name]. They all mean the absolute world to me ❤️"

Apart from the fact that it's slightly nauseating, you might notice I didn't make the cut there. And this is a public statement that mutual friends and family can see. I'm just so sick of her bullshit to be honest and I'm expected to just put up with it so they can play happy families putting up the Christmas decorations?

Magic

Re your comment:-
"I don't currently want to total cut them out of DS' life as I do think they're good grandparents to him and they currently see him for a few hours every couple of weeks".

They are awful to you and your son will pick up on all that as well. It will confuse him if they are nice to him and horrible to you as his mother. He sees all your reactions both spoken and unspoken after they have made contact. That may be your own FOG (fear,obligation and guilt) talking here.

These people were not good parents to you when growing up, they have not fundamentally altered really. Toxic parents more often than not make out for being toxic grandparents too. You would do yourselves a huge service if your son and you were to stay well away from all of your family of origin.