Religious moral dilema!!

[supersox]

Hi All

I've never posted before, so hope you will not mind this intrusion.

I have a new friend, a woman I met at a soft play area who is new to the area. We get along really well, have lots in common and she is a really lovely person. My only slight reservation is that she is deeply religious (of the 'Happy Clappy' persuasion)which I don't have a problem with per se but why do I feel like a potential new recruit?

She's quite full-on and although I've been honest and told her it's not for me I think she thinks I can be educated!

This weekend she has invited my children to her Sunday School (they do want to go) so I feel I must accompany them! Any ideas? I really do value her friendship and we get on so well in every other respect.

I've had problems with "I'll pray for you" in the past. It's caused me deep brow-furrowing. On the one hand the person means it sincerely, but on the other it can, as meowmix says, come across as somewhat patronising.

nearlythree- hope you didn't think my question was rude. It's a genuine one of definition which has often bugged me. I know this is true of the major religions, but what about grey areas like Scientology and the Moonies? They'd probably call themselves religions, but act more like cults.

I think one thing atheists and Christians can agree on is that Christianity is still a relatively young religion and is still growing. A couple of thousand years is nothing in the great scheme of things. People play games with the numbers, and church numbers are either going up or down depending on which kind you look at, but it's fair to say there are still people out there "spreading the word" and making converts. For a Christian, this is all good, and indicates the religion is on the up and growing. For an atheist, it's interesting to observe, as you tend to take the view that, based on historical evidence, it will eventually go the same way as other religions from other cultures in the past (although I wouldn't ever presume to say when). Who knows? In an unknown number of centuries, it may be a curio seen as peculiar to two or three millennia in history.

The other interesting thing I wanted to mention is that an atheist doesn't consciously think about being an atheist all the time. It doesn't inform your decisions in life. This is a key difference between belief and non-belief, and one of the reasons why atheists can't be described as "zealous" or "devout" and one of the many reasons why atheism isn't a religion. The most deeply committed Christians I know use their belief as a barometer for every decision and are constantly asking God to help them choose and decide, etc. In general, I probably think about matters of religion as often as I think about golf! Which is not very often.

Hi Caterpiller

I don?t think I ?jumped on you? so why so defensive? I?ve already said that I have no axe to grind on behalf of one side or the other. I?m just expressing an objective view. You, on the other hand have demonstrated the point I was trying to make perfectly by becoming immediately defensive when you thought that someone might be making a valid point which challenged your deeply ingrained views.

IMHO (again) you hold your views just as vociferously as those who are extremely deeply committed to their religions. There is really very little difference between the two groups to my mind. You are equally extreme in the other direction ? analagous to the political far left and far right.

Both groups share the same arrogant smugness and unerring conviction that they are right.

Nevertheless, I think that your views should be respected, just as the others' should. Neither side should be given more credibility than the other. Neither is right, or wrong, and both groups should be given equal rights to believe what they do - and to tell others about it too. Ideally, both belief systems should be studied, examined and questioned too.

You know as well as I do that the general RE that is taught in schools is in no way dangerous. That position is nothing more than a gross over reaction and a frankly staggeringly outrageous distortion of the truth. It is no less an extreme view, or a totally preposterous staement, than some of those expounded by the ?dangerous? religious cults you no doubt take exception to. In many cases, the bible stories that are told of in school RE lessons are all underpinned by sound moral principles ? what harm can that do to a 6 or 7 year old?

IMHO (yes, again) people who seek to push their extreme views one way or another onto their children do them no favours whatsoever. The children invariably kick back against it at some point trust me.

i'm with harmless on this one. give the child all the information available and let them decide. you can't censor everything they read or see! and they won't thank you for it either.

i was born to a jewish father and an aethist mother and was sent to a catholic school where they told me i was going to hell because i hadn't been baptised. i was 5. i got myself baptised and confirmed at 13, became a buddhist at 16 and an aethiest at 20. i'm a bit pissed off at the nuns that made me so angst ridden, but i'm glad i was able to explore different religions before finally seeing the light.

Madamez - thank you for your post. DS is still wee. I'm worrying about things well in advance - we've still got some way to go. Talking of which, utter obedience. If only!

I can't wait to start talking about things with him. At the moment we've got a lot of Leave the dog's bowl alone, Please don't go out there, Do not hit the cat, Tractor! A bit boring. I don't want a clone and it's pretty obvious that he's strong willed (or badly parented) so no doubt we'll disagree. It's going to be lovely!

I'm just a touch anxious about having to be the one dissenting voice in amongst the all encompasing assumption that Jesus wants him for sunbeam. According to posts on The Teaching of RE this is what will happen in primary school, CofE or other, while he's little. Which bothers me a bit.

Sidthekidsmum, know what you mean. I was talking to another mum at playgroup this morning, and it sounds as though the only primary schools in our area are faith schools, which does not please me at all, as I do not want DS to go to a faith school. I disapprove of them intensely, they are socially divisve and discriminatory. I don't want my kid or anyone's kid fed propaganda at a young age and I certianly don;t want him taught rubbish like 'intelligent design' in his science lessons.

Have you ever considered home schooling? If not, I think perhaps you should.

That way you'll never have to worry that your DC will ever have to have their ears of minds sullied with anything other than what you want them to hear or think. Perish the thought.

Jeez (excuse the pun) some people on this site really would benefit from taking a chill pill - or 10!

Sorry, (should have previewed) should have read "ears or minds"

Harmless, actually I am coinsidering home schooling as a fallback position for DS anyway. Not because I'm paranoid that he will be exposed to opinions other than mine, more because knowing that homeschooling is a reasonable alternative takes a lot of stress out of life (I refuse to have his childhood blighted with anxieties about which exam factory he's going to get into, when things have changed a lot from the days when, if you didn';t pass your exams you were destined for a life of factory work).

I do object to faith schools, particularly faith schools funded by everyone's taxes.If the superstitous want to fund their own schools to teach kids their own brand of rubbish, then let them pay up - though such schools should be inspected regularly to make sure that the teaching hasn't lapsed into GOd Hates Fags or Kill the INfidels... but schools that get their funding from tax payers of any faith or (pretty much the majority according to one recent survey no faith) shouldn't peddle sectarian propaganda to children.

I think it would be best if you did homeschool your DS Madamez. At least that way he'll only have to cope with having his childhood blighted with anxieties of your own making that thoughts and views which contradict your own will reach his ears.

There's a big world out there you know. One day your DS will have to live in it. Let's hope when he finally escapes the cocoon, having been indoctrinated with your strongly held views, that he is a well rounded human being who can relate to people from all walks of life and who hold all sorts of diverse views - even those who work in factories

I've been reading this and must ask...Madamez have you visited a faith school ever? Or did you go to one yourself? It's just that your description is so far from my experience of faith schools, it's like you're talking about a hideous nightmare version of something that is actually very good (IMO anyway). You may well have answered this already but my brain isn't up to much today!

Harmless, I'm not defensive, I just know i'm right

Seriously though, my remark about RE being dangerous wasn't meant to be taken literally. I didn't think anyone would take it as such. Obviously there is nothing dangerous about a class of 6 years-olds listening to bible stories. What I mean is that if the seed is planted in the heads of impressionable children, it is something that they could later get into at times in their lives when they are vulnerable and receptive to that sort of thing, eg if they are depressed, having some sort of crisis etc.. This is when I feel it can be a dangerous thing, and therefor see it as something my children need to be protected against. Whether or not other people disagree with my logic is neither her nor there to me. It is a personal decision. I have no problem being in a minority.

As a catholic I too think faith schools should be abolished. Education is one thing and faith is another. I want my child to know about ALL religions and to have a balanced education about them all. I don't want her brought up on a diet of St. Paul!

I send her to a CofE school that is fairly liberal. For her faith, I read her the Bible, I pray with her and we go to Church nearly every Sunday.

Parents should teach the children their faith. I would not happy having teachers tell my child something that I don't believe in. There are aspects of my Church that I don't necessarily agree with and luckily I am able to tell her that I don't know the answers. Such as transubstantiation. I don't want her taught that it is DEFINTELY Christ's body and blood and that she mustn't chew etc etc.

I don't see why faith has to be mixed up in education anyway.

Rhubarb, I couldn't agree with you more. You sum up my point perfectly - let parents teach their children about this very personal subject in the way they feel is best. Surely this is every parent's right.

I didn't want you to be in a minority!

Unquietdad - no, not in the least offended. According to the cult experts in this country (can't remember the organisation's name) both Scientology and the Moonies are cults. Btw, did you see my reply re HTB? Or am I right and you just don't see the problem?

About the praying thing...I wouldn't dream of praying for someone simply b/c they didn't have any faith - not my business. But I do pray for people in times of need. I find it very hard in RL to tell someone I'm praying for them - I've only done it a handful of times, in each case b/c of a great trauma or tragedy. I've only once said it to someone with no belief, to my friend when her ds died.

I have a Celtic healing cross on our wall, and on the back it says, 'You cannot help alleviate another's suffering unless you are prepared to enter into it'. Of course, much of that will mean going places you don't want to go, hearing things you don't want to, knowing about things you can't bear to know, and for this you don't need a faith. But I also believe in redemptive prayer; that during prayer you can take on a little of another's suffering, and so relieve them, just a bit. It's real, I've experienced it and I know others who have.

Which is a very convoluted way of saying, that as a person with faith there are times when you would be wrong not to pray for someone, regardless of their beliefs.

I agree about Christianity being such a young faith. Intellectually I can't get the nuts and bolts of Christianity to make sense. I don't know if I'm still a Christian or just a believer in God. And to think if dd1 hadn't arrived I'd probably be a priest by now...

Rhubarb, Thank you. I was beginning to feel quite misunderstood by certain people.

Aww! You can join my gang whenever you want and I promise not to pray for you!

It's a deal . Although, I wouldn't mind if you did. Each to your own, that's my motto.

Actually I prefer hanging out with atheists, I find Christian types too weirdy. They can mostly all play guitar, hug each far too often, sing tunelessly, wear Jesus sandals, read far too slowly in Church, hold eye contact for too long and are devoted family types.

My motto is; "you don't have to be goody to be Godly"

I'm going to get strenous denials of my stereotyping now!

O course you are. This is an irony-free zone, remember.

nearlythree - sorry, yes, I did read your stuff on HTB. That would shock me as well. Not the way that we heathens expect Christians to behave at all! It sounds more like politics than religion.

Unquietdad, yes, in many ways it is like politics. The in-fighting and back-stabbing between the different wings of the CofE is quite amazing. It's worse than politics b/c of the religious belief that drives it IMO. I used to be on the Deanery Synod and got my voting papers to decide the Diocesan repersentatives to the General Synod (who said teh CofE was beaurocratic?) In this case it was the traditionalists, evangelical and Anglo-Catholic together - usually they are opposed to each other-, trying to pack the Synod with their (anti-gay, some anti-women bishops) supporters, and the liberals (pro gay, pro women bishops) trying to do the same. My instinct was to vote for the latter and getr the liberals in, but then I suddenly felt sick of it all. I ended up not voting - it was every bit as bad as Westminster with all the nastiness and the pointlessness. Very little love, which isn't great for a Christian organisation. The CofE - and the wider church- is mired in the endless idealogical battles which no side can win.

Supersox, did you go to ss in the end??

Hi All

Quick update...No didn't go to SS in the end but only because a 'forgotten' birthday party appeared on my calendar! Yes honestly! Saved by the bell! However, although I haven't made any promises, I think next Sunday is already earmarked for us to attend.

I wish I could be more assertive.

Can't believe this, my firt posting, is still topping the bill!

Will keep you posted.

Rosylea - I did go to a faith primary school and the education was inadequate - far too much time had to be spend being bored to death in church, for one thing. As to modern faith schools, what about those Vardy academies? What about the gruesome sectarian divides perpetuated by stupid faith schools in Ireland and Scotland?

I don't want my DS to have to go to a faith school because I disapprove of faith schools. They are a Bad Thing. I particularly disapprove of the fact that, if my friend is right about schools in this area, then there is no school option that is not superstition-led. Parents who believe in gods, fairies, celestial teapots and the like are at liberty to teach their own kids about this stuff, and I've got no problem with an overview of all mythologies and belief systems being taught at schools. I just don't think it's right that state-funded schools, which should cater to everyone who lives in the area, are starting off from this discriminatory viewpoint.
DS will naturally grow up being exposed to a wide range of opinions on just about everything, and he'll make his own mind up, just like everyone else does. The more variety of opinions he gets to hear, the better. Another reason not to be too keen on faith schools, diversity of opinion isn't going to be very high on the agenda there.