Religious moral dilema!!

[supersox]

Hi All

I've never posted before, so hope you will not mind this intrusion.

I have a new friend, a woman I met at a soft play area who is new to the area. We get along really well, have lots in common and she is a really lovely person. My only slight reservation is that she is deeply religious (of the 'Happy Clappy' persuasion)which I don't have a problem with per se but why do I feel like a potential new recruit?

She's quite full-on and although I've been honest and told her it's not for me I think she thinks I can be educated!

This weekend she has invited my children to her Sunday School (they do want to go) so I feel I must accompany them! Any ideas? I really do value her friendship and we get on so well in every other respect.

percypig, where does the Bible condemn pre-marital sex?

wannabe, perhaps your friend would be happier as a nun - she can do that as a Protestant too. As I said before, if you believe in something then it informs everything that you do - I bet your other Christian friends do or avoid certain things as a result of their beliefs w/out making a big thing about it. FWIW I can understand why you feel uncomfortable about people praying for you. My aunt and uncle (who are deeply unpleasant people) are Mormons, and have been puuting details of our family members into a huge computer in Utah so that they can be 'baptised' (even the dead ones) and so go to heaven. I believe this to be total crap, obviously, but even so I would be spitting with rage if I thought they were putting me and my dcs and dh into their machine - esp. the dcs. Fortunately they don't like me so are happy for us to go to the firey furnace. As for suffering - well, that is a whole thread on its own...

Unquitedad - I would be amazed if anyone ever gets converted by going to a church service. I can't think of anything I've heard in church that has particularly got me. For me it's about something internal rather than anything I hear, at least in church - and most of my 'religious' experiences have been well away from church, and if they involve words it's usually as a result of ordinary conversation. Did you see The Monastery? One of the best television moments ever, when poor Tony got scared out of his wits by the religious experience he had - marvellous. And interesting to note he still doesn't call himself a Christian or go to church, which just shows how unhelpful and unimportant all the lables and dogma really are.

modern translations using say do not commit adultery but if you go back to the original language the correct translation is fornification ie sex outside of marriage. Lots of stuff is not that well translated or does not make much sense unless you know and understand some of the culture/practises of the time when it was written. What annoys me is when Christians get very anti gay errrrr sex outside of marriage is just as sinful to God as "gay" sex. People whatever they believe in are imperfect. Rant over (for now)

HTH

Another late one to the conversation here.
I just wanted to say that I would not leave my children anywhere without first checking itout and sunday school especially I would want to know exactly what my children were being told in that respect. If they didn't want me to then my children would not be staying either.

I do feel a little uncomfortable at the thought that SHE asked your children to go without first checking with you espacially as you had already told her that it was not for you so id does seem as if you have been railroaded into this a bit so that would make me wary. If you really do not want to go then don't, I would not wirry about excuses I would just politely tell her you have givn it some thought and you have changed your mind.

But isn't marriage a man-made thing? I was told when studying that the 'sin of fornication' was 'done away with' in the 1930's! Karl Barth (hardly a liberal) took the line that if God gives you a vocation to be with someone then you are 'married' in God's eyes regardless of whether you have formalised it in any way.

I have no idea what is sinful to God - actually I don't believe in 'sin' in that sense at all - but I suspect that if God really is going to judge us all then the fact that dh and I lived together for four yrs prior to our marriage isn't exactly going to be troubling God all that much, whereas every time I've turend away from those I could have helped or hurt someone most definitely will.

I think in old testament times 'marriage' was what happened when a man spent the night in a womans tent

Wannabe - I'm glad your views haven't been completely coloured by a few people and you have other friends who respect your beliefs while still believing in God themselves. In life we meet all sorts and Christianity is no exception.

nearlythree - to God it's all sin - sin isn't graded into bad sin and not so bad sin etc. I'm not into theological debate don't know my theology well enough just wanted to slrify. Us humans grade some stuff as being more okay than other stuff. I guess man did formally create marriage but in a way God did it was a union between mand & woman to the exclusion of all others - I don't think changing partners apart from after death was included in that. God forgives all of it if you ask him too. Hope that makes sense.

nearlythree your aunt and uncle sound like charming people - not . I remember watching a programme about mormons once, they were all deeply odd (the people in the programme that is) all lived in utah in comunes and had multiple marriages to their uncles and nieces etc - deeply disturbing stuff. That being said I worked with a girl who was a mormon, she'd been to Utah and was deeply into her religion but she never preached to anyone.

I do think that with reference to things like sex before marriage etc, that a lot of the bible is open to interpretation and should not be taken literally. Some of what is written in revellations for instance, if taken literally is scary as hell, almost like something out of a horror movie (mark of the beast and such), but I think that it's important t remember that when a lot of this stuff was written it was in the days when man hadn't nearly made any progress, you can't possibly predict how things will be in 2000 years, because so much changes.

Buffysmum - dh and I weren't unfaithful to each other when we lived together, we just weren't married. I agree with you - a life partnership is God-made - so why does there have to be a human-made ceremony too? (not that I regret my wedding day, not a bit, but I already had made my committment to dh a long time ago).

I can't see how anyone can grade sin? To do so is surely to claim to now the mind of God. I don't have enough faith in people - well, let's face it, men - to believe they wrote down what God wanted them to so accurately that we can condemn someone for who they sleep with.

Wannabe, knowing the context of the Bible is so important. For example, the Roman world in which Paul moved allowed men to force their slaves into gay sex - no wonder he condemned it - he wouldn't have seen the faithful, loving gay relationships that we do. Similarly he appears to condone slavery.

Liquidclocks, I didn't know that!

Nearly3 - digging in the recesses of my tired brain I think the only allowable reason for divorce either under old testament law or from what is documented on what Jesus said is when a husband/wife had got married believing the other person to also be a virign when in fact they were lying thru their back teeth about it (so me thinks old testament law) but I think then there was no living together you were betrothed to someone - went off to their tent on the alloted night (eek) and then you were married (eek). Still going really off a tangent me thinks

nearlythree - yes, which is why I'm always surprised when people say "come along, listen, you might hear something to change your mind", etc. There would need to be a complete rewriting of the laws of physics as I know them for me to change my mind. And even if someone could "prove" to me that a god existed, it's another great step again to "worship" him/her/it - I'm surpised the two are always conflated.

If anyone could 'prove' that God existed, then it wouldn't be faith, would it?

Worship is such a subjective thing. A person might enjoy worshipping in church, but they won't find a reason to worship there - that happens in everyday life.

give the friendship a chance and if it was me I would decide on my own views and do not discuss or negoiate.

If you are forever having to sidestep issues or it seems like you are a recruit and not happy with it (esp. the way she appears to have used the children)...

run

No, and I've had the proof/faith conversation so many times ! Richard Dawkins puts it very well in "The God Delusion" - that there is no way of proving "things that are not", i.e. you can't disprove the Great Celestial Teapot (copyright Bertrand Russell) or fairies, or Thor, or the Great Spaghetti Monster. There's no way I can ever prove that God absolutely DOESN'T exist, but I can assert, as far as any educated person in the Western world can, that I feel him to be highly, highly improbable.

So you weigh up the evidence and have to make a decision about how reasonable it might be that these things existed, and then live your life by that decision.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has ever been "won over" by a church service, Alpha course or whatever. DW went on the Alpha - remained open-minded but sceptical - and I went along to the final meal as her "guest". It was, admittedly, fascinating to hear the stories of the speakers and how they "came to God". Almost all of them had been though difficult times and tough experiences, and seemed to have had a hole needing to be filled in their lives. I found that very interesting.

I fear we have hijacked the OP's query somewhat! Tell us how you get on, supersox.

UnquietDad, it's not surprising, though, is it? FOr one thing, all these crap-peddlers (be it astrology, homeopathy, christianity or marxixsm) have a kind of instinct for people who are a bit bemused, a bit unhappy, maybe in shock after a traumatic event, and tend to target them. For another, people who are happy and sorted in their lives, whether or not those lives include any brand of nonsense or superstition, generally tell proselytisers to piss off in the nicest possible way.

I've found it generally to be so, although I'm sure people will quote exceptions.

Is it not possible then to be happy and sorted and a christian who speaks about their faith?

Crap-peddlar is really strongly worded stuff. I'm sorry you've got so much bitterness towards people with a faith.

Please try not to let us bother you so much. We're just humans and if you not only dislike our beliefs but also our very existence (as some on this thread seem to), then that's really quite sad.

DO you really believe that all people of faith be they Muslims, Jews, Christians have nothing better to do than to compile lists of vulnerable lonely people in order to bring them over to the dark side? We are not ambulance chasers.

And I do not believe for one instant that every person with a belief only came to faith after a traumatic event. That's really ludicrous. I didn't and neither did anyone I know. I was 13 and in high school, not traumatised in the slightest and converted to Christianity after reading the New Testament by myself in my room.

None of my family members are religious and I was forbidden to attend a church service of any kind until I was 18. I suppose I must have rebelled against my parent's devout atheism. You must all have that possibility to look forward to. dh has a very simliar story and I think it's quite common

Atheism by its very nature is not "devout".

For me, the God of the Christian religion and writings associated with him are interesting, but bear no more relation to reality than those of the Greek, Roman or Egyptian tradition. I'm sure my children will learn about them all and their effect on their respective cultures. If they do, it won't be an act of rebellion.

My daughter believes in fairies and Father Christmas at the moment, but I'm sure that won't last.

As I was saying below, I think theists are often surprised at how much atheists like to inform themselves about religion (and it's disappointingly unreciprocated). It's rare to find an atheist who has, on principle, NEVER read the bible, gone to church or heard an evangelical speaker. We like to know what we are not believing in...

I wouldn't have put it as strongly as madamez, but I'd say: while it's possible to be happy and contended in your faith, that doesn't stop it being something which people reach for to fill a hole in their lives when they are vulnerable. It may not be the policy of the Church as a whole, but it certainly seemed to be the way that - for example - the Christian Union at my university used to "recruit".

I have been going to church since before I can remember and not one time have we been told to prey on loney people who were down on their luck. Its not done that way because we don't think that way. A Christian wants to see someone who is happy and well adjusted come to Christ just as much as someone who is going through tough times. You make it sound like the church is run by David Koresh.

UD - lol - we've deliberately not gone down the father xmas or faeries route in our house - ds is the one at nursery telling the kids it's "just a story" sounds familiar?

Ok ok so "devout" should have been in those irritating fingered quotation marks so beloved of social workers and the like. Don't nitpick - you know exactly how I meant that. A pox on this here t'internet....

And apart from the lovely Richard Dawkins - how should I be informing myself about atheism? genuine question btw - not sarky.

Well, Dawkins is a start. He's not always the most user-friendly of academics, but he knows his stuff (I think his tetchiness comes from exasperation at having the same counter-arguments thrown at him for 30 years).

And then there's the James Randi Educational Foundation , a renowned bastion of scepticism. And there's also the British Humanist Association .

But for a lot of people it's not a passionate "un-belief", simply a "meh" feeling of "this stuff has nothing to do with my life", if you see what I mean.

Right - will start with the humanists. Ta muchly.

I've always wished people with no realigious convictions would have humanist wedding/naming/funeral services rather than suddenly insisting on a church service when the need arose and then complaining about the religious content

religious

I had a humanist wedding, my son had a humanist naming ceremony and my dad has just had a humanist funeral, actually.

Aloha - I would expect nothing less from your good self