Religious moral dilema!!

[supersox]

Hi All

I've never posted before, so hope you will not mind this intrusion.

I have a new friend, a woman I met at a soft play area who is new to the area. We get along really well, have lots in common and she is a really lovely person. My only slight reservation is that she is deeply religious (of the 'Happy Clappy' persuasion)which I don't have a problem with per se but why do I feel like a potential new recruit?

She's quite full-on and although I've been honest and told her it's not for me I think she thinks I can be educated!

This weekend she has invited my children to her Sunday School (they do want to go) so I feel I must accompany them! Any ideas? I really do value her friendship and we get on so well in every other respect.

Of course religions actively recruit people. Why else do you think that Jahova?s witnesses go round knocking on peoples? doors? To pass the time of day and have a cup of tea and a chat? No, they do it to spread the ?truth? as it is known in the hope that some people will listen and will join. Why do people stand on the streets shouting the word of Christ and giving out leaflets if not to spread the word in the hope that someone will hear it and will be converted.

You do not have to be a devout atheist any more than you don?t have to be a devout non-believer in father Christmas. For atheists it?s simple. God doesn?t exist, what more is there to say.

And I had a civil wedding and my son wasn?t baptised as I had no intentions of standing in church vowing to raise my child in the name of God when I had absolutely no intentions of doing so.

I meant those who would choose a religious ceremony but object to the relgion.

ie parents who choose a christening for their child rather than a naming ceremony, but get worked up over the bit about bringing the child up as a christian. But I don't believe christenings are biblical anyway so bad example, sorry.

non religious people who get married in church/christen their children generally do it because the photos look better outside the church/it's a lovely church/they want to walk down the long aisle ... etc. My sister got married in Church and even went to church for a month before the ceremony in order to "prove" she should be entitled to a church wedding. They even picked out passages from the bible ie corinthians 13 is it that says about love etc? and yet they've never been to church since.

As for religions ?recruiting? people who are going through a tough time, I think there are two ways one can look at it.

Some religions do actively spread the word of God in the hope that others will listen and will come to Christ. In these instances, if one were going through a tough time, one might hear the ?word of Christ? and see that as something to turn to when all other hope is lost. For the ?recruiters? it would be seen to be that ?god was there for you when you needed it most?. For the atheist and the non-believing scenic, it could be seen to be that ?religious nuts prey on the vulnerable when they?re down on their luck, and suck them in that way?.

Wannabe, I think most people would agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, certainly not Christians as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ.

And those that shout on the streets are only one sect of Christianity - usually Bretheren or Strict Baptist. I've been stopped by differnet groups of shouty Christians on many an occasion in several towns and asked if I've been washed in the blood of Christ. When I've replied "yes", I've been told that actually my salvation isn't certain!! Which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches, so tbh I do question whether those specific people I'm referring to were Christians at all. Certainly religious church goers, but their actions |IMo did not demonstrate a real, engaging, intimate relationship with God.

Christians are encouraged to share their faith "with gentleness and respect".

If Christians "recruit" anyone then I doubt they understand the idea that it is God who does the converting, not people. Jesus told Christians to tell other people what they believed and why and then if anyone responded then they could show their commitment to Christ by being baptised. Nowhere in the Bible are Christians instructed to "convert". Obviously, a true conversion happens in the heart and soul of a person not by their attendance in a particular building.

As Keith Green once said "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger."

Incidentally his biography written by his wife is an excellent book for any interested in liveing an honest and radical Christian lifestyle - definitely not for people more interested in churchianity.

NB - not saying that either Plymouth Bretheren or Strict Baptists aren't Christians - just those specific people I "discussed" things with on the streets.

x- posted.

the problem though bobsmum is that those types do claim to be Christians, and they are the ones who are visibly "spreading the word", so the ones who religiously go to church and go about their day to day business but don't try to enforce their beliefs on to others, can find themselves tarnished with the same image as those radicals shouting on the street.

It's similar to the view some now have of muslems following the actions of a few radicals iykwim?

Aloha - I would love to hear more about your humanist ceremonies - esp. the funeral. How did you go about it and what happened and what was it like?

Wannabe - I think we are finally seeing eye to eye on this one. I know what you mean exactly.

Hi again. I agree wannabe, which is why I posted yesterday that those who are interested in Christianity, or just want to check out the beliefs of a particular church should read the Bible for themselves and compare its teachings with those of the church. It really saddens me when one group of Christians emphasises part of the Bible which suits their cultural outlook and seems to ignore the rest. Especially when they focus on the wrath of God and ignore His amazing love. This gives non-Christians a false impression of what it really means to live your normal life as a Christian. I'm Northern Irish and there are sadly loads of examples here of blinkered ungracious Christians.

good post pp

Thanks bobsmum - right back at ya!

Dimpledthighs, it was very easy actually. The funeral director had a list of celebrants, and she talked to me and to other people about my father and asked me to write stuff about him, and sort of acted as a master of ceremonies, saying we were there to remember him and celebrate his life, she talked about his life, some friends got up and paid tributes to him (he'd known some of them for over 50 years) they played lots of music (he was a musician) including some of his stuff and that was it really. Then we all went to his favourite pub and his friends played music there, which was the best bit, seeing my two year old dancing away. It felt cathartic and positive.

I could never have had a church wedding as we don't believe in God. To me, it would have been starting our marriage off with a lie, which I think is wrong.

I agree Percy, You so often see people using the Bible for their own ends. I believe in what the Bible says, no more and no less. I also think that people forget that the Christ I've read about advocated peace and love.

I also live in NI, although am not originally from here. I am shocked at the things people will say in the name of religion. Sadly some people here even preach hate from the pulpit. Makes me very sad.

Aloha: glad to hear it. I am in training to become a humanist celebrant at the moment and lots of people who have had humanist weddings/funerals/namings or been to them say how much they've liked them. Humanist ceremonies don't contain any religion but may well (depending on the views of guests) factor in something like a moment of quiet reflection, which would allow any religious-minded guests to say a silent prayer if they wanted to.

Oh, and those who were offended by the term "crap-peddler" I rather intended it to describe people who pester others with their views rather than people who hold to any particular belief system. Though I do regard all religions, new agery, life-on-mars-conspiracies, football supporting and watching Eastenders with about the same level of mildly amused derision - ie those who like caring about/reading about/singing and dancing about all this stuff are welcome to go and do so. I just don't want to hear all the details.

Religion is rather like golf for me. Or cross-stitch. Or the music of Mariah Carey. Or the Shopping Channel. If you know what I mean. It's not something I passionately have to hate or wish would go away (although on Mariah Carey I'm close ), it just leaves me cold. It has nothing to say to me and doesn't relate to the way I see the world.

Unquietdad, I know where you are coming from re Alpha. I have never done an Alpha course and never will. but I have read Alpha news and have really mixed feelings about it. I hate the doctrinal certainty of what they teach, and I hate the self-congratulation. But I totally agree it appeals to those in emotional need, and I can't decide if that is a bad thing. For example, a lot of the testimony in Alpha is from people (particularly men) who have either been involved in criminal activity or who have been abusing their partners and families. Going on Alpha makes them feel better about themselves, and they turn their lives around. Does it matter why they turn their lives around? Also, I can't remember any account where the author has said that they started to believe because of what they heard - it was b/c of how they were made to feel, perhaps by someone praying for them - a lot of accounts include crying uncontrollably.

I have huge reservations about HTB itself - I've heard some stuff about them which as an atheist you probably won't find remotely interesting but to a Christian is shocking - and apparently they are now trying to open a television studio. It is such a wealthy church, it's hard not to see why people distrust it so.

Atheism has nothing to tell me about my life. I really like believing in God, even when I am really confused by what it is I actually believe in.

Madamaez and Unquietdad, I'm with you completely on this subject. Perha[s you would like to take a look at the thread I started on the teaching of RE in schools. I'd be interested to hear your views...

No, do tell about HTB! I will find it interesting I expect...

Caterpillar: link to thread please?
Ta.

Aloha: I had a humanist wedding as well. We did the legal bit in a registry office, then went off into the woods with 80 family members and friends and lots of champagne cocktails. A friend of ours led the ceremony (after I'd gone through his suggestions with a marker and crossed out all the stuff abou 'the gods of the west wind blow on you' - he's a bit of a hippy), and made it all about our love for one another, and the people who were there to celebrate it with us.

Extra bonus: the wedding photos look like something out of a Hardy novel.

Just an aside about church weddings: I see churches as part of our national heritage, and not just the possession of Christians. If I could have had a church wedding with a humanist leading the ceremony, I probably would have done. I love churches.

I would seriously avoid going to a church described as "happy clappy". My sister and her husband used to be very evangelical (that's the spreading the word bit) and whilst it made them happy it was quite difficult to be around. I was brought up a Catholic and have a good religious understanding (my mother taught comparative religion, and I studied Islam at university) but being cornered after attending one of her church services by people who demanded to know whether you are "born again" is not a pleasant experience! In fact it's probably one of the reasons I am now an aetheist. This was at a fairly main stream (ie not centred on one charismatic leader) but very successful church. I would be very cautious about your children going to Sunday School there, but if you go too you may be able to hide behind them (they will probably have a very nice time, because the sort of people who go to such churches are in general nice, they just can be very intense).

Madamez, sorry but my computing abilities do not extend to giving links.

If you go to the Education topic group then my thread is (or was) at the top entitled 'The teaching of RE in schools.'