Religious moral dilema!!

[supersox]

Hi All

I've never posted before, so hope you will not mind this intrusion.

I have a new friend, a woman I met at a soft play area who is new to the area. We get along really well, have lots in common and she is a really lovely person. My only slight reservation is that she is deeply religious (of the 'Happy Clappy' persuasion)which I don't have a problem with per se but why do I feel like a potential new recruit?

She's quite full-on and although I've been honest and told her it's not for me I think she thinks I can be educated!

This weekend she has invited my children to her Sunday School (they do want to go) so I feel I must accompany them! Any ideas? I really do value her friendship and we get on so well in every other respect.

Are u a single parent by any chance, i have found that this sometimes means easy prey! They are always trying to recruit new members, if u r not interested in joining her church dont go.

Come on - steady on with all the "easy prey" comments! That's a bit much!

I agree with buffysmum.

I am speaking from experience and i stand by the single mums being easy prey comment, maybe you should pray for me

Part of the deal with belonging to some religious organisations is making a f**ing pest of oneself to other people. If you say, when asked to attend some religious event (other than a wedding/funeral) No, thank you, with no further explanation, that's a good way of finding out how much of a pest your new acquaintance is likely to be. It's not dissimilar to being asked on a date by a new acquaintance you like but don't fancy: a polite refusal is all that's necessary and if they keep on asking then you either have to spell it out or back right off from the person.

And I do wonder (and OK this is me not the OP) at the way in which the superstitious think that the free-from-superstition are fair game for pestering. If you say to a Christian proselytizer of any type "actually I'm Jewish/Muslim/Sikh" then they'll leave you alone, if you say you're not religious then they'll keep bugging you. Some of us don't need imaginary friends.

I find it a bit worrying that your friend invited your kids to Sunday School; surely she should have asked you, in private, whether you'd like to come along to her church and/or whether you'd be happy with her inviting the kids?

When I was young my mum made friends with a Christian and because of this friendship, we ended up going to Sunday School every week. Mother was only ever a nominal believer so it was a bit weird.

Personally I wouldn't want my kids attending any religious service that I didn't believe in, not while they were so young anyway (I'm with Richard Dawkins on 'the God delusion'). However, since now apparently they want to go...

Good luck

Bobsmum I have had many experiences with ?born again? Christians, and believe me ime they are vastly different to those ?Christians? who have been raised in a certain religion. The ?born again? ones, as a rule, can?t imagine that there was a time in their lives when they didn?t worship God, and therefore they find it sad that there are people out there who still haven?t accepted god into their lives and for them it is almost a mission to tell the world about their wonderful experiences of accepting god into their lives.

I have had many experiences of these types of Christians, including a friend who split up with her bf because he ?came between me and god? and who, when asked how she is she replies ?I?m blessed?, and a woman I met on a train who told me that ?god had intended for us to meet today, because I feel your life is so empty?. Both these people, and many others I have come across, have been lovely people, but that doesn?t stop them from being religious nuts.

To the OP, I wouldn?t let your children go, not even once. IMO this woman will try to get to you through your children. Once they?ve been once, she will ask if they?ve enjoyed it, if they have, you?ll have no justification for not letting them go again, and children are impressionable, they will be telling you about God before you know it, and if you don?t go along it will be noted how sad it is that mummy can?t be there. No maybe the church isn?t ?dodgy? but if it?s a ?born again? type it?s very full-on and converting people is what they do.

I would say what I said before and echo aloha, run for the hills and never look back.

As an aside, I find it interesting that it is considered acceptable for religious people to tell others about their faith, to casually drop into the conversation how God has touched them etc, and yet if I generally started preaching to people that IMO, God doesn?t exist and that it?s ?all a load of claptrap?, this would be considered to be disrespectful to those that believe. Why is this? My lack of belief deserves as much respect as the beliefs of others, and the fact that some people who have strong beliefs seem to think they are in some way better than me because they believe is very irritating.

I am of the opinion that if my ILs were a bit less holy they'd be a lot nicer. That's besides the point.

Getting back to the original question I would steer clear as well if this Sunday school is in any way connected with ALPHA.

WannaBe makes all of us Born Again Christians sound like real nut jobs. Its sad that she thinks. Her comments also make me pretty sure that she has not set foot in a church that is evangelical. She makes it sound as if people are out to "recruit" you. The truth is thats the case in a way. If you attend the church, yes, people would love for you to come back. I doubt she will hassle you if you decide that you don't want to attend again. Nobody will try to brainwash your child either.

I also think its sad Wannabe that your friend has found happiness in her relationship with Christ and that you can't feel happy for her. All you can do is belittle her.

oh believe me I've been to more churches than I care to mention, and all of different faiths/denominations.

as for my friend, I think that if she is happy in her faith then that's great for her, but to have God in one's life to the exclusion of everything else is a bit unhealthy IMO. I know a lot of Christians who live perfectly normal lives, who believe in God, who prey, who go to church and who live their lives by the teachings of the bible, and they are all my friends and I respect their beliefs and they respect mine. but for this girl, and for many like her, her "relationship" with God borders on an obsession. Everything she does is about God. I mean everything. She is 33, she has no partner,no children, she still lives at home with her mother, and the only serious relationship she had she ended because the guy wanted to get physical and she didn't think it was fair to God to do so. And yet she is sad that she doesn't seem to have friends. The reason why she doesn't have friends is because she has such a bloody holier than thou attitude, and even my Christian friends agree that she comes across as if she looks down on all those who don't worship in the same way as she does. eg she told me that I should prey to God for forgiveness because I had lived with my dh before we got married and thus had had premarital sex. She considered it a mortal sin, and told me that if I didn't prey, then I couldn't be forgiven, and could not gain eternal life - wtf. Sorry but that's unhealthy, and anyone who says that kind of behavior is normal is mad.

I attended a boarding school for 10 years where I was made to go to church every Sunday. Where I attended testamonies by people telling of how they had "found God", I have been to churches, mainstream evangelical churches, where people have thrown up their hands and cried out for God and where people have spoken in tongues. And I have seen firsthand the brainwashing of young children, where they are befriended by the sunday school teachers who then come round to spend time with them, invite them to social events eg bbq's etc, all with the underlying motive of ensuring their love of Christ. And I have also been to normal churches where people have worshiped peacefully, have preyed quietly and respectfully, and there's nothing wrong with those kinds of churches, it's the "happy clappy" ones that are weird. so if you think I have no idea think again, because I've had enough of God to last me a lifetime thank you very much.

We allow our kids to be exposed to Christianity since we are secure enough in our views that we don't see it as a major threat.
We have taken steps to help our kids be intelligently sceptical, like explaining how wishful thinking can screw people's thinking. We have explained the subtle dishonesty of advertising, and it's easy to extend that to the sale of religion to them.

If your friend was Catholic and had decided to become a nun would you have thought that weird?

Supersox, is this the Kings Church, Wellington? I've had a look at their website and they do seem very evangelical. It may be great or it may not, but if you do go bear in mind that this is only one kind of Christianity. What would concern me is that at some point you or your dcs may feel that you need some spiritual comfort and be put off finding it in Christianity b/c you find this particular experience uncomfortable - I don't know if you saw The Monastery but you don't need to be a Christian to get something from quiet and contemplation.

Just some general thoughts on some comments here...it's a nonsense to say that faith should be a private thing - if you believe something then it should affect everything you do from what brand of coffee you buy to how you vote. But at no time in my life have I ever felt that the right thing for me to do as a Christian was to try to make others believe as I do.

DC, I suppose if you think all forms of Christianity are as bonkers as the next then it doesn't matter much if your dcs are exposed to any kind of it. But I am very cautious about what our dcs hear - although I want them to figure out their own beliefs I do teach them how I understand things and I don't want them being told what are, to me, untruths about God. Too many churches place emphasis on personal morality and doctrinal purity at the expense of justice for the poor and disadvantaged and loving others, and I do not want my dcs being told that this behaviour or that belief will get them sent to hell, in which I don't believe anyway. Spring Harvest are pretty mainstream but I binned a childrens' praise CD I had from them b/c the lyrics offended me. Incidentally, I don't confine this to evangelical churches - any form of organised Christianity can get like this.

wannabe, I feel desperately sorry for your friend. She seems to have got some very strange ideas about God and can't be getting any peace or comfort from her faith. True belief brings freedom, not the imprisonment to which your friend seems to have confined herself.

As a Sunday School teacher I am more than happy for parents of new/visiting children to stay - good for them to see what SS is up to and about and for the children to feel secure and settled. HTH

I would think it was very sad yes. Sad because of all the things in life she will never experience. You can?t live your life just for one purpose. You can?t only have your children in your life, or only your husband, or only your family, or only God. You have to have all these things in your life, because if you devote your whole life to just one thing then it changes you as a person. And I think that for someone to be so intensely religious that all they can do is worship, and do everything in the name of God and preach to everyone else about how wonderful God is, and try to make sure that everyone else believes in the same way, they must have such a massive void in their lives that this, to them is a means of filling it. I?m not talking about regular churchgoers who find comfort in their faith and who live religiously, if people have a faith then I think that?s great for them, I?m talking about people like my friend, and people who stand on the streets screaming out the word of Christ and people that knock on my door wanting to convert me. By all means believe in God, but not to the exclusion of everything else.

And the difference between say, the catholic church, and those more, erm radical churches is that in the catholic/c of E//similar churches, the people go to them, not the other way round. But the more intense churches, such as are frequented by the born again Christians, the people who go there feel the need to go out on to the streets preaching to the masses, and that?s just not on IMO. If I want to hear about God I?ll go to church, but I don?t so I don?t, and I don?t think anyone has the right to preach to me about god/to tell me I?ll burn in hell for not believing or for having premarital sex. If you believe then that?s great, for you, but I don?t, and I don?t wish to be looked down upon by people who think they?re better than me simply for believing in God.

I live by the law, I have morals and good values, I believe I am a good person, if there is some kind of afterlife then I believe that the way I live my life should determine what happens to me in death, not the God I worship/don?t worship.

nearlythree you are absolutely right about my friend. She had a pretty tough childhood, dad had an affair throughout which kids knew about - in fact other woman even used to ring the house to speak to him etc), she was very conservative, only had one boyfriend throughout her school life and that only lasted for six weeks. As a child she was actually quite a nasty and spiteful child, very possessive of her friends, to the extent that if someone talked to one of her friends she would say things like "you could at least have asked me if it was ok to talk to xxx" etc. She was quite inteligent, did well in her exams etc, and was also quite musical. She was quite deeply religious even then, but not to this extent.

Then when she left school she went to uni and got a degree etc, and it was then she got so heavily involved in the church, playing for the church choir, going to nightly meetings etc. I don't speak to her regularly as she lives abroad and doesn't have email, but on the few occasions we've spoken she's talked only about God. Never does she mention any friends, only once did she mention this boyfriend, and it was another friend who told me that the reason they'd split was because he'd wanted a more serious relationship, and instead of discussing it she'd ended the relationship. He also told me that she'd lost virtually all her friends because of her attitude, and the fact she appeared to look down on people, and to judge them for the way they believed. He said she would ring him about every six months and "preach" to him that he wasn't living his life right etc, and that God wouldn't approve. And this is a friend who is a Christian also, but who lives a very normal life which God is just a part of iyswim.

I don't think she is happy at all. I actually think she is desperately lonely, but I think she has brought it on herself to a large extent, but I think she now feels that God is all she has, but she's certainly not getting comfort from it.

I actually think she would benefit from distancing herself from the church a lot, by going out, having a drink, having a laugh, doing just normal things that don't involve the continual need to praise and worship.

of course there is time for that, but there also has to be time for other things as well IMO.

Aren't you hypicritical. You think that you are better than people who believe in God. You look down on them. You are no better.

Wannabe - after all your posts on this topic I am definitely going to be praying for you. NB not preying on you.

so i don't believe in god and that makes me a hipocrit? bullshit. I've already said time and time again that if people believe that's great for them, but the fact they believe does not mean I have to believe too. I don't go round trying to force people to not believe, so what right does anyone have to preach to me or anyone else. None what so ever.

And why exactly are you going to prey for me? because I don't believe? because I haven't accepted God into my heart? I find that an insult tbh.

I have many friends who are christian. they do not prey for me, they do not want to save me and I respect their beliefs and they respect mine.

But someone who preaches on the street is not respectful of the fact that others do not believe what they believe. preaching on the street, knocking on my door, and saying that you will prey for me is bloody intrusive and shows no respect for the fact that I do not share your beliefs.

I believe that religion is a private thing, and I actually believe that it should be practiced in private, in one's own home, and in the churches/temples provided.

I won't preach atheism to you, but I also don't want religion shoved down my throat.

This is aimed at the extreme Christians amongst us btw, n ot those who are Christians and who practice their faith without intrusion into ovhers' lives.

wannabe, I am a catholic and I have found comments here directed at you to be patronising. My mother always says she will pray for me, as if I've commited a big sin or something!

Not read all the thread so I don't know what the original argument was, but I think you are being goaded here. You are less likely to ever think about religion if this is the attitude you come across.

Just wanted to say that we are not all like that. I have lots of atheists friends and I would never dream of trying to convert them or force my opinions on them. I value their friendship too much for that.

rhubarb I absolutely agree that not everyone is like that . I have many many Christian friends who have deep beliefs, one who is even an elder in his church. But none of them ever talk about God, or try to talk to me about my non beliefs. These are true friends, friends I have come through school with and who I am still friends with to this day. I think actually that the majority of Christians are like this, and respect everyone for his/her own beliefs, and that there's a minority who give the majority a bad name iyswim.

I actually did used to believe, not strongly, but I did believe that there was something out there iyswim. I went to a boarding school where we were forced to go to church on a sunday, said grace before/after meals, religion was very much at the forefront of everything that we did (I grew up in South Africa where religion is very strong).

But as I got older, as I looked at the pain suffering around the world, at the bad things that happen to people, and most importantly for me, at the wars faught in the name of religion, I began to think more and more that there is so much negativity in the name of religion, that for me, nothing positive can come out of it, and that if there was a God, he surely wouldn't cause so much pain and heartache, because that wouldn't make him a good God if that makes sense. And so I no longer believe that there can possibly be a God out there, I really don't. But I do respect others' need and desire to believe that, but I also expect those who believe to respect that I don't, and for the most part they do.

I was being ironic.

And then making a play on words using the praying for/preying on misunderstanding.

That's still clearly a misunderstanding amongst some people.

And as you don't believe in God then you must also believe that my praying for you will make no impact on your life whatsoever. So how is that intrusive in any conceivable way?

I know I'm jumping into the conversation late here - but I just wanted to make one suggestion to those of you who are criticising evangelical churches (which I, as a 'born again Christian' belong to).

I can understand that if you're not used it the style of worship may seem strange - I feel that in some churches. I can understand that if you don't hold the same beliefs you may find it over the top or threatening to be spoken to or preached at etc by those who do believe. However in our society people express their emotions, beliefs and joy in a range of ways - I've seen people swaying, clapping, arms in the air at concerts, rugby matches etc. I've met people who've been so excited about their team winning or something great happening that they can't shut up talking about it. Why is it that these things are acceptable, yet expressing religious beliefs in similar ways isn't?

Anyway - back to original point: my suggestion is that if you are sceptical, interested, anxious about a church read the Bible for yourself, in a modern version or even a paraphrase like The Message. Find out what it says and then compare the beliefs and attitudes of churches and Christians to it. For example the Bible does say that premarital sex is wrong, but it also says that gossiping is too. It's not easy to believe or live out, but I for one will follow God with all of my life.

I didn't say you were hypicritical because you didn't believe in God. You are hypicritical because you condem those who do belive for (what you perceive to be) them thinking they are better than you. Yet you think yourself to be better than them. You are behaving in the exact same way that you are critising them fo.r being

madamez: "sitting listening to them for a couple of hours will not change our minds."

Amen to that!

It always amazes me that, when I've told Christian friends and acquaintances in the past that I don't Bleev, they have persuaded me to come along and try their church out. On the odd occasion I did, just to keep them happy. But I'm amazed that they think it's actually going to change my mind.It's as if they expect you never to have encountered evangelical Christianity "in the raw" before, or that you have never done any reading about it and therefore know nothing.

It's as if they think it must be that you don't "understand" it properly, rather than that you understand it perfectly well and just happen not to share it.

supersox - I'd say she sounds like a nice friendly person, but be sure she knows the limits of your friendship. DW and I are very good friends with some people whose beliefs we don't share at all.