Religious moral dilema!!

[supersox]

Hi All

I've never posted before, so hope you will not mind this intrusion.

I have a new friend, a woman I met at a soft play area who is new to the area. We get along really well, have lots in common and she is a really lovely person. My only slight reservation is that she is deeply religious (of the 'Happy Clappy' persuasion)which I don't have a problem with per se but why do I feel like a potential new recruit?

She's quite full-on and although I've been honest and told her it's not for me I think she thinks I can be educated!

This weekend she has invited my children to her Sunday School (they do want to go) so I feel I must accompany them! Any ideas? I really do value her friendship and we get on so well in every other respect.

Unquietdad, not sure you will get this, but anyway...

One of my huge reservations about Alpha is their 'Holy Spirit' weekend, the gist of which is that the people on the course all go away together to call down and experience the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Spirit, or whatever you want to term it, can go wherever it may choose, can be with people, noticed and un-noticed, asked for or not, regardless of religious belief or absence of such (which is pretty much what most Christians believe IME). To suggest that Alpha can take you to Butlins and the third person of the Trinity is guaranteed to visit the campers seems a little arrogant to say the least (and probably barking to you.)

Anyway, whilst I don't think HTB is known as a Charismatic church, this Holy Spirit thing is def. a big feature with them. A very dear friend of mine, who is an Anglo-Catholic priest, was on the team ministry of a large rural church. The team vicar left and teh new guy was very evangelical. For some reason a team from HTB got involved with the ministry there. My friend was given so much grief that he was forced to leave - they even told him he wasn't a 'proper Christian' b/c he 'had never expereinced the Holy Spirit'. My friend is one of the unsung saints of the church - for the last seven yrs of his ministry he worked 24/7 for no pay (even though he was entitled to a full stipend) until it burnt him out. He even said to me once that he never had experienced the Spirit in the way they said, to which I replied that there had probably never been a time when the Spirit wasn't with him.

Well, the congregation at the church my friend had left grew, and got really into all this stuff, and eventually the HTB people organised a 'Holy Spirit' day, much along the lines of the weekend, I assume. On the big day, the congregation packed the church - and nothing happened. In the end, the new evangelical priest was accused of 'blocking the Spirit'. By this time the congregation had got so fired up they demanded that the new priest resign, and it was only the intervention of the Bishop that kept him his job and managed to restore some sanity to the place.

Don't know if you understand why that shocks me so much, although I expect you can see why I am no longer a member of any organised religion!

Booboobedoo, in my churchy days I used to serve on the PCC in our small rural village. The churches (we have two in the parish) are absolute leeches - they suck so much money and effort away from anything else. Some congregations find their churches a burden, but not here. People are obsessed with the building to the cost of everything else; it's not an exaggeration to say that some people worship the building and not God. You would not believe the row that started when it was proposed to replace the rotten pews with chairs. Me, I'd give the lot of them to the nation and keep them for special occasions (weddings and the like), and get the churches back into pubs, and village halls, people's houses, and out into the fields and by the sea. When I was on there the money we spent on works to the buildings would have paid for an entire AIDS day centre in South Africa for the charity that my mum works for. If Christians are supposed to ask, 'what would Jesus do?' then this lot obviously either hadn't bothered to actually read the New Testament, or they didn't care about what his answer would be. That was when disillusionment first started to set in for me.

Nearlythree" sounds like the poor silly sod was lucky they didn't cut him up and eat him. Mass hysteria is always a bad thing, and these assorted outfits that try to provoke it (whatever brand of mythology or political theory they're attached to) have only got themselves to blame when it all goes horribly wrong and someone drops dead, goes bananas, or a yowling lynch mob descends on the wrong address and gets very embarrassed.

This alpha lot will come unstuck sooner or later. One or more of those in charge will be caught with his hand in the till or offering some sort of private prayer ministry of the hands-on-horizontal variety. Hopefully it will be no worse than that as Alpha is (I think) broadly Anglican and the Anglican temperament doesn't lend itself to Jonestown. Or Waco.

I don't know...I'd be very surprised if anyone from HTB itself was up to no good in the sense you mean, although any church-based course can be used as cover for - well, just about anything that preys on the vulnerable - Alpha courses are run everywhere and most are independent of HTB. What I think could happen with HTB is that they become too big (and too self-important) to remain part of the Anglican church. Already something weird happened when Sandy Millar retired - Nicky Gumbel seamlessly took over and SM became some sort of roving bishop, being consecrated in Uganda or somehwere! The whole thing looked like it was done to subvert the usual processes and Rowan Williams was clearly discomforted by it. It's that kind of thing, HTB throwing its weight around that will ultimately cause its downfall. If it did end up leaving the church then there could be problems like you envisage as it would then no longer be accountable to anyone.

Nearlythree: no offence but I'm not acutally aware of the differences between the Judea People's Front and the People's Front of Judea, if you get my drift. But whichever lot HTB are, they're not entirely immune to the possiblity of rapists, nonces and thieves in the ranks, it does happen. Can't remember his name now but about 10-15 years ago there was some vicar or other who the tabloids referred to as the Reverend Rave, who had these ever-so-enticing services with music and lights and dancing ladies in Holy Spandex. Of course he was poking all the parishioners and pocketing the collections... gave all us atheists a good laugh when they nicked him, anyway.
It's not difficult to get stupid people all revved up (and by stupid I don't mean poor or uneducated, just people who don't think about anything very much) and convince them that this is the Way! The Truth! And put your money in this pot here! If it was, then there's be no way of making a living selling slimming products, cold cures or religions of any kind.

Oh, yes, the 9 o'clock service guy. But it was very obvious what he was up to - the church just didn't want to see it b/c he was getting young people into church . Not very funny for the girls he victimised though.

HTB - Holy Trinity Brompton - the massive church where Alpha started. Very wealthy, run on very professional lines. I would be amazed if anyone at the top of HTB was involved in any sort of scandal, although obviously they could be - so could the boss of Marks and Spencer or the capatin of the England rugby team. Of course, in an organisation the size of HTB someone further down could well be too. I think HTB, and its leaders in particular, are under so much scrutiny - Alpha puts a lot of emphasis on personal morality - and they aren't hugely popular outside of their own circles - I think if there was some dirt to be dug up it would have been found by now.

HTB produce the materials for Alpha and hold conferences on how to run it. But any church can host an Alpha course - I could go out tomorrow and buy the books and videos I need and run one. I could then fleece and/or shag everyone who comes but it would have nothing to do with HTB or those who run Alpha's HQ.

Sorry to cross post but:.. Madmez, where / how are you training to be a humanist celebrant?!
I have been looking for somewhere to further my knowledge / training as a celebrant. I have held beautiful non religious naming ceremonies for my two dd's and also organised a number of humanist funerals, and hand fastings but would like to do some propper training and have guidance from more experienced folk.

Any info help would be much appreciated.

and sorry supersox for hijacking your thread!

Hi Twelveyeargap

"There was only ever one religion I didn't feel comfortable being around, out of let me see, 6. Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Roman Catholic, Jehovah's Witness and Mormon."

Can I take a guess at it being the JW's?

I have had first hand experience with JWs (hasten to add not being one!)and have to say that they really creep me out. They are IMHO beyond wierd. To my mind an extremely questionale cult which preys on the emotionally vulnerable.

I have to say that people who hold strong religious beliefs per se do not offend me in the slightest. Each to their own I say, live and let live and all that. I think it should be a private thing though and I don't like the idea of evangelising and generally making peope feel like they "haven't seen the light".

Having said that I've got no problem whatsoever with my children taking part in religious education classes or religious asemblies in school. I did the same things when I was at school, and even attended sunday school at a Methodist church off and on. Despite this, thanks to parents who raised me to question and challenge the things I came across, I have managed to grow into a well rounded devout sceptic. Hopefully my DC will follow in my footsteps.

harmless, I have both JWs and Mormons in my family on my dad's side. The JW ones are totally harmless - a bit dotty, can't have kids so are mad on cats - they hardly mention their faith and I don't think it features much in their lives, apart from making them feel safe. My Mormon relatives, however, are thoroughly unpleasant, and my cousin tells horrific tales of the people at the church where she grew up. I don't allow my dcs anywhere near my aunt and uncle nor their son - their daughter (my cousin mentioned earlier) has escaped although her childhood was so traumatic - think it would have been anyway but bringing God into made it a whole lot worse.

I bring my dcs up to question too, it's why although I believe in God (and at the moment so does dd1 - the others are too young) we can't subscribe to any organised religion - sooner or later you find something you can't agree with and end up a hypocrite.

hello everyone,

Supersox did you go to the Sunday school with your dcs? If so, how did you / they find it?

I justwant to say something that might be a bit controversial... Yes I thoroughly agree that churches, and religious groups, should not be allowed to hound, badger, pester the vulnerable and those less able to make their own decisions. Or that Christian people should make friends with the sole subtext of getting them in to church.

However...the church is and should be a haven for anyone and everyone including those with learning difficulties, and children, and all sorts of damaged people (as we all are really). IMHO as a christian there should be no better place for them to find community, comfort and God. So there's a very fine line between pestering and inviting, and in all honesty I'd rather err on the side of inviting. Churches can be intimidating places for non-goers and if people really want to come, to whatever event, it's nice to go with a friend.

Also when I was growing up (in a non-religious household) there was a certain sense that church people would invite non-church kids to Sunday school to give the parents a break - could that be what your friend had in mind when she invited your dcs to Sunday school?

JW's are a cult and are not Christian, you learn something new every day, I'm surprised nobody has called them a sect yet? K-thunk!

This thread has got me thinking. Can you help? None of my family have any religion and this goes back generations.

How do I tell my son when he gets to school age that I think the Christian belief system that he'll encounter there is ridiculous without making him think that the teachers are talking nonsense?

It depends on what kind of school you send him to - if it's a CofE for example then (in theory) religion will be more evidently taught across the curriculum. Non-church-based schools probably won't have such an emphasis on religion anyway.

IMO it's hugely important to teach tolerance and respect for others' beliefs, which only comes from understanding them - which is why as a christian I'm more than happy for my dcs to learn about other religions. I can't really understand the attitude of parents who withdraw their dcs from RE lessons - if nothing else it is important to understand why religion is so important to so many people. (How many times did I use the word 'important' there?!? )

The way I go with my v. inquisitive dd (aged 4.5) is to answer her questions as and when they come up. We take her to church and Sunday school, and pray with her, as those things are important to us, but rahter than going on about it all at great length, we let her respond in her own way and take it all in. She does ask some crackers! So I guess you cuold do the same from your pov - just let him ask you his questions.

That's only one approach anyway. HTH!

I wouldn't remove ds from RE lessons - he'd think I was being a maniac! I'd very much like him to be a tolerant person and have an understanding of religions. I hate to say it, but I honestly feel that trying to keep him out of a church or synagogue or whatever would be the best way of achieving this.

I'm not convinced by the respect bit. I've always had the feeling that religious people don't "get" the other types. I don't feel that my views have ever been respected as such. Pitied maybe!

I was asked to be a godmother for my friend's daughter. It was embarassing to have to explain that I wouldn't be able to submit to Christ. She didn't really understand why I might object, but she was nice about it. (We settled on me being a Fairy Godmother). I have another friend who is Jewish and who was too polite to say no!

DH and I are not religious. We bring up our children to have an understanding of the various faiths, but not to "respect" them - we think religious belief is nonsense so what is there to respect? Respecting another's RIGHT to have a belief is one thing, but respecting the actual belief itself is quite another (and non-sensical).

I have kept one of mine out of RE because she was quite disturbed by some of the stories eg drowning babies etc. However she was made to sit with the class below so it almost felt like a punishment. As I said on my thread 'RE in schools' the pressure doesn't only come from the teachers. One of mine was put down quite badly by another child (aged 6) because he said he didn't believe in God. What is this moral superiority of those who believe in God??
Again, at the risk of sounding like a desperate actor plugging my play, some of you who have just joined in this thread may also like to contribute to the one I started in the Education section, called 'The teaching of RE in schools.'

That is terrible, making her sit with lower class. Ds had a friend who was a devout Jew, and he was withdrawn from RE.

He helped school secretary and ran errands.

Bellarosa, contact the British Humanist Association www.humanism.org.uk there is a page on the website explaining how you can apply for celebrant training. Courses are held every 6 months and when you;ve taken (and passd) the course you are a BHA accredited celebrant.
I don't quite understand how the CAT thing on here works but my email is [email protected] if you want to chat about this a bit more. of luck.

"How do I tell my son when he gets to school age that I think the Christian belief system that he'll encounter there is ridiculous without making him think that the teachers are talking nonsense?"

Simple, just don't tell him anything of the kind. At the end of the day that is YOUR view. Does it have to be his too? Why not give him the opportunity to hear about your views and see the other side of the coin too? Then let him arrive at his own views. That's what I always aim to do with my kids. I don't want/expect them to turn into little clones of me by the time they reach adulthood. They are individuals and should be allowed and actively encouraged to explore the world and make up their own minds about things and arrive at their own views and opinions unincumbered by my prejudices as far as is humanly possible.

I am actually astounded that people are so hell bent on ensuring that their children grow into adults who share exactly the opinions as they do as they do. It seems to me arrogant and controlling in the extreme.

I went through school attending all of the religious assemblies and even went to Sunday school too. It hasn't had an impact on me and I like to think of mysef as agnostic (one of the wait and see brigade who wouldn't like to look stupid if ever God/Jesus does turn up on the scene ).

Handled the right way, it is not axiomatic that attending RE lessons/religious assemblies should = gowing up to be a religious maniac.

Whichever way you look at it, there are an awful lot of adherents in this world to a myriad of different religions. Faith in a God as a belief system should not be ignored, just as choosing not to have faith in a God should not either. Every angle should be studied and questioned and held up for rigourous examination too.

Children deserve to be allowed to have their minds opened through education as much as possible and for me that means taking and active part in the entire cirruculum.

To my mind, if people withdraw their children from religious education (for whatever reason they might have - none are justified IMHO) it is demonstrable evidence that they are insecure in their own beliefs and are worried what may happen if they are in any way challenged.

sidthekidsmum: have you sent your DCs to a faith school? Or is it just standard to give them Christian mythology in local schools? Whatever.. it's no bad thing to teach one's own kids to question pretty much everything they hear and to make their own minds up. Utter obedience is fine (and indeed moderately neccessary) in toddlers, but kids from 5 upwards should be encouraged to reason things out rather than just accept what they are told...

Great post, harmlessmacaroon!

Just to add that I was once very caught up with a religious group. I would call them more a 'sect' than cult. Do not get me wrong...they were lovely people but they did not half come out with some stuff. Bear in mind that I was only about 13 at the time and used to go to a youth club and sunday school (without parents!!)- they used to do a little chat at the end of club and one of my particular favourites was ' when god comes back...those of you that haven't been saved will stay on the earth and need 666 imprinted in your head before you can get your bread/milk from the shop etc etc'. How frightening and wildly inappropriate for young children. As you have said....it is really important you go with your kids and not just the once to hear the kind of thing that is being spouted. Needless to say...as a result of this and many other such incidences...I now avoid religious groups. I think its great that some people are so involved with thier religion that they want to share it...but I think its a shame that when you meet them it feels as though this is their only agenda. I don't mean to cause offence to anyone but I wanted to share my experience.

What's the difference between a sect, a cult and a religion? Apart from the number of members.

I've walked away from my religion without anyone from my church trying to blackmail me or threaten me in any other way. Nor have they told family members to stop talking to me.

If I had been in a cult, that would have happened.

Bobsmum you asked this

"And as you don't believe in God then you must also believe that my praying for you will make no impact on your life whatsoever. So how is that intrusive in any conceivable way?"

I'm an aetheist. I hope you'll see sense one day. Intrusive at all?

The point is that by telling others you're praying for them it comes across as if you are bluntly saying that you are better than them, that they are misguided idiots and that they are a bit stupid not to follow your religion. Or to put it another way its like saying "bless... did you buy those shoes all on your little ownsome?" Deeply patronising and, to me at least, hugely flipping rude.

Harmless,

I have no insecurities about what I believe in. I simply don't wish my children to be told something I believe to be false.

For me it's quite simple. I wouldn't want them to hear the advantages and disadvantages of doing drugs and then let them make up their own minds. The same applies here for me. Please do not take that to mean that I do not respect or understand those who do believe and jump on me! I do, but I just disagree. Surely it's my right to protect them from something I believe to be potentially dangerous, or even a waste of time, even if other people disagree with me?

Unquiet dad, I think the difference is the degree of certainty in your belief. Cults and Sects KNOW their way is right and everyone else is deluded.