Christmas issues

[ConkersDontScareSpiders]

I have recently separated from h, and though at first it was very amicable, that soon altered when it transpired he had been seeing my best friend for the year and a half before the break up and that they had both been acting in ways that were highly manipulative and unpleasant during that time.This has continued in various forms since I found out and there have also been some horrible discussions with h about money,which have been stressful and during which I feel he has attempted to screw me over a bit.
I have had some pretty bad anxiety/depression issues since finding out about this in March.I eventually lost my job, which Id started the day I found out and which was something I had worked so hard for.Im still finding it all quite hard to deal with.
Our two DD's (9 and 10) are unaware of the situation with h and my former best friend (though I think they have worked out that something is going on-small town, lots of gossip, and of course said friend is no longer in my house every few days as she had been-and the kids aren't totally oblivious to that kind of thing).h does not want to tell them and I haven't-against my better judgement really and also because her kids are friends with mine-so it would be something that would affect them too-as they are also apparently none the wiser.
The situation is very strained still and I am nowhere near back to being myself.
The girls are now asking what will happen at christmas. They have expressed a preference to go to my parents-a 3 hour drive away (as my dad is old and ill and they have a very good relationship with him and are concious that after a recent health scare he is not invincible).My parents do not want anything to do with ex h, (whereas in the past it might have been possible-it isn't yet and may never be, for him to come with us to spend Christmas at their house).
H and I have had some brief discussions re Christmas.he thinks it would be 'unreasonable' of me to say that we are not all four going to spend Christmas together 'as that's what we always said we would do' (which we did, even post split-but that was when we were friends, before his behaviour had become apparent and before he consequences for me had occurred).
I don't feel I can spend any prolonged time with him at the moment.we are polite in front of the kids, and other than stuff around the kids I am trying not to engage with him at all. The thought of spending Christmas with him is not Inspiring.However of course I also don't want to spend it without the girls-especially this year after all that's happened.
The added issue is that it's dd1's birthday on Boxing Day-so it's not even really possible to trade one day off for the other in our case without it being awful for her.
I just don't know what to do, so any advice would be welcome. Am I being unreasonable in wanting to go to my parents? This will be our first spilt up Christmas and I'm so sad that we arent even friends enough to spend it all together as we might have done. It was important to me that we were friends still-and all that is now screwed up really.But I'm still a bit shattered by it all and I can't see how I can do it at the minute.
Sorry this was so long.

doesn't like it when I don't act how he thinks I should.

Frankly, I would say that he lost the right to have an opinion on your actions the day he started shagging your friend.

In fairness the marriage was busted for a while before we split up-he would say that he and her were a symptom not a cause. Doesn't really excuse the year and half they lied and snuck around, and some of the more manipulative things they both, but she in particular, under the guise of being my friend, did during that time. Thank actual God I found out when I did actually or I would have really been screwed I think, financially and in terms of the custody stuff-she was trying to persuade me that it would be better for him to have more custody than he has now (and did then) as it would be 'better for the kids' as that's what she and her husband (who 'coincidentally' had spilt up at the same time as us-he had known about it for some time) were doing. It didn't ring true at the time as I know how much it upset her to not have her kids 50% of the time and how she had said it wasn't right for them in her opinion. It was that really I think that set my alarm bells ringing now I think back to it although it was a few more months before I consciously twigged.

I suppose it doesn't matter. It's all just varying shades of horrible.Except it's things like that that make it quite hard to even look at him,never mind sit around a Christmas dinner table with him!

Conkers my love, nothing whatsoever excuses what this pair did.

Jeez, even in terms of STBXHs and OW that really is bad!

And as PP says even if your marriage had been totally over they'd still have behaved abominably.

Horrendous, both of them. I think CatintheCorner's suggested approach is a good one. I really don't think your daughter should have to spend half her birthday travelling just so he can see her either, unless she really wants to.

BTW, I think he does know that they have behaved appallingly; why else hide their relationship from your daughters / public. He clearly cares a lot about what others think of him, and not much how others feel. Not a good combination. It might not seem it now but you are so much better off without him. Also, please don't try to minimise his shitty behaviour by reference to the state of your marriage. He was cruel and selfish and nothing justifies it.

They always say the OW is a 'symptom not a cause' - that is just a way of shifting the blame. It's true though: she is a symptom, but of his innate douche-baggery and lying-bastardness, not the problems in your marriage 😂

He is a person who is very con enter about what people think of him. And so is she. but neither of them, before of after this, would ever have admitted it about themselves. in that way they perhaps deserve each other..
Think dd1 would be upset about not seeing him in her birthday. And they would maybe both be sad to not see him on Christmas Day though perhaps not to the same degree as the birthday.
Another compromise is that we've been invited to friends for lunch (the girls and I) which would mean we're were at least home so he could see the girls for part of it. He wouldn't be particularly happy about that either but it would be a compromise I suppose.

*concerned.

I think it's quite a big compromise to not go to your family for the day when that would be your first choice, you know the girls would enjoy it and your family will too. Any other solution puts him first, in a way.
They may feel a bit sad on the day, so might you. Or they might enjoy the day wherever they are. This is a first and firsts are always hard. It will be different next year.
Try to keep things simple, don't split days, keep travel to a minimum and don't get into debates with him about what you have decided to do. Email or text communication can be useful for that. Have as little face-to-face contact as possible at the moment.

i think it's time YOU started taking control of and calling the shots in your life - especially as the resident parent.

Your dc are old enough to know their minds, so if it's in their best interests - then it's reasonable. they chose their grandparents over their father - i guess because they're smart enough to understand that you can't please everybody all the time so you may as well do what feels right.

i think you need to find a way of telling them their parents are now separated - and their dad has a gf. It isn't fair to continue deceiving them into next year, that isn't damage control.

They know we are separated. He's moved out. They have been ok wth that. As ok as they can be.
I wanted us to still be friends really as that seemed best for them.h says that's what he still wants but I just feel so angry towards him and very hurt, and I don't believe much that he says anymore. He says it's my choice not to maintain a good relationship with him-that he's 'responsible for what he did but he can't be responsible for my reaction to it'. Of course that's probably true but it's a bit of a simplistic view of it maybe.

Extremely simplistic Conkers.

Of course the hurt you feel was his, and your 'friends' responsibility. You can't conveniently separate the two. You're not a robot who can 'maintain a good relationship' with him to suit him.

Agree that the kids come first. If they are happy, you are happy.

The only problem here is you trying to please your kids and him. Just focus on pleasing your kids. Christmas and birthdays are a massive deal for kids, let them decide what they want.

He opted out of being a family, his choice. Now he wants to have the best of both worlds. He can't. What he wants is irrelevant, he choose to stop being around 24/7. You can maintain a civil relationship with him, for the kid's sake. That doesn't mean doing what he wants, it means doing what you want, what your kids want. What suits you all. You must never stop him seeing them, they need their dad, but you must stop fitting in with him as easily.

Of course you should agree suitable times for him to have his kids. But these times must suit you too.

Your little ones will grow up before you know it, will form their own opinions, decide for themselves whether they want to see him. For now, listen to what they want, add what you want, and go from there.

If the price he pays is missing key events sometimes, tough. He should have thought that possibility through before he ran off with your friend.

So he gets to cheat on you ...and when your kids find out later...you have to act in a way that tells them it's ok for this to happen to them / others and it has to be sucked up? Surely that's going to teach them to repress their emotions. Yes you are an adult...no you are not a robot! Tell him to gtf!

I know this is what I should do logically. But I can't seem to do it-I guess I want to try and preserve some sort of relationship with him for the girls sake-but I do feel quite intimidated by him-not because he would physically hurt me. Just used to him calling the shots I suppose.and because of the effect this has already had on me.I know I need to man up.

You don't need to have a relationship with him for your girls.

Your girls do need a relationship with him.

Separate the two.

I have no contact with my ex. Our three kids see him regularly. It works just fine.

Of course you don't feel strong, he's worn you down.

Your strength, self worth will grow as soon as you move things on.

You can't see the wood for the trees, because you are used to him calling the shots.

Get some control, start being assertive, you need to move through this, so find some strength and take your life back.

You don't need to man up, you do need to remember that he is not your friend, friends don't treat each other the way he has treated you. He has done this not you, don't let him make you party to his guilt, it's all his.
You need to remember that you can not expect or rely on him to give you any consideration whatsoever. He has already shown he won't.
This is one Christmas, it's the first Christmas since you learnt of his betrayal. I think you absolutely need to do what works for you, if you don't put yourself first then no one will be giving you any consideration whatsoever. Put yourself first. Whatever is good for you will be good for the children as you won't do anything to harm them emotionally or their relationship with their DF, but if you only concentrate on what's good for them you will end up doing things that harm you, which will harm them in the long run.
Also, if you really work at doing this now you will be putting healthy boundaries in right from the start, which is much better than trying to back peddle years later (as I am now) and again will be in everyone's interest in the long run.
Do what you need to do to protect and llook after yourself right now. Don't let him force his guilt or his opinions onto you, they are his alone and have no business taking up space in your head.
Fwiw you sound very grounded, strong, considerate, and a fantastic parent doing the best you can in a horrible situation. Remember that

He says it's my choice not to maintain a good relationship with him

I think that's possibly the most arrogant, entitled, condescending and patronising thing I've read on here in a long time - and there's been some competition.

You can't be friends, or even friendly, with someone who is not a friend and treated you so badly. You can still discuss matters to do with the DC as needed, without any wider relationship with him.

I have been in the same position, my stbexh thinks I shouldn't have told our teenage children why we separated, they weren't stupid my DD even told me who the OW was. You need to speak to the kids and give them age appropriate answers to the questions they have but haven't asked you yet.

Christmas is to do with the kids, they make the decision.

Your relationship with him is your choice on how you behave around him. It doesn't matter if one day you are ok and nice and the next you want to string him up, they are your feelings and thoughts and you need to be able to express them.

My stbexh says that my depression last year that I suffered from following the revelation of his affair and followed very quickly by the death of my 2 grandparents (within 9 weeks affair to 2nd death) was one of the reasons he left ! Because I couldn't drag myself out of it - I was out of it on anti d's and alcohol and anything else that let me forget. I realise now that he was still trying to control my behaviour even though he was having a relationship with the OW and trying to convince me he was staying.

As soon as you can stop him controlling your thoughts and what you say and think the easier it will be for you. I unfortunately speak from experience.

Oh clam-not only has he said that to me-he's said it to other people as well :(
If we don't get on its conkers doing, not mine kind of thing.The people that know the full story think he is vile. The people that know his version (his family for example) believe him to be a victim and me to be a bitch who 'lost her job on purpose to fleece him for money' and is 'exaggerating her mental Health issues to get sympathy from people'. I've seen the messages between them all slating me-his messages were still synced to our iPad for a bit.
He's been round tonight as we got a new puppy yesterday and the girls wanted him to see it. I just look at him and wonder who he is really :( .
He said 'we need to talk about Christmas and the holidays-I know it won't be an argument as I'm sure we will both be reasonable'. Meaning I assume that anything I suggest that doesn't fit with what he wants will be further evidence of my being unreasonable and all the things he has accused me to others of being. I can't win really.

Bloodywellbowmuch-did he ever say what he did want to tell them?

He sounds awful by the way...
It's incredible how many of these people there are about really.

I know it won't be an argument as I'm sure we will both be reasonable'.

Was he always this much of a tosser?

You know, it sounds like your ex-friend has done you a massive favour.

Conkers - he wanted them to know that we had decided to separate because we no longer made each other happy - complete b*llocks - he wanted to go and shag the OW (who incidentally didn't leave her OH).

The OW was a friend of mine before he met her as we used to run together, her child knew 2 of our children and she didn't breathe a word of what happened to her OH until my DD tried to speak to her, she called my DD a liar so my DD told the OW's son (he was 20) and gave him the proof he requested.

Very long story short I confronted her in front of her OH at her home and I told her and him the truths about the relationship, almost killed me emotionally but I felt so much better afterwards. I see her now on the school run and give her the fingers, or wave or blow kisses - anything to piss her off :)