House... Baby.. No ring.

[littlerabbitface]

Have nc'd for this.

I suppose this is like a WWYD.

Basically me and oh live together, own the house together, have a baby, own a car jointly, finances are pooled. You get the idea. We act like a married couple.

However we are not a married couple.

Not even engaged.

At first it never bothered me really, but now we have a baby and him and oh have the same surname and I have a different one, I'll admit it does really get to me that we aren't married. I feel like a bit of an idiot.

Before anyone says well why did you buy a house and have a baby with him, well because I thought we would get married and I wasn't bothered if that came before or after a baby!

Now I'm starting to doubt it'll happen. We've been together four years. Neither of us have been married before. He's in his early thirties, I'm in mid twenties.

I know there is no real rush, and realistically we couldn't afford a wedding for maybe a year or two. (Though I'd be happy with a registry office and a nice meal! He wouldn't!)

When I've spoken to him about it he mainly just says we will do it in time, we will get there eventually, not yet, or in a few years, or what's the rush it won't change anything (technically it won't I suppose, obviously legally but in terms of our relationship nothing would change as we're pretty much living as a married couple)

He thinks I want to rush into it and doesn't see why I'm so bothered about doing it because it won't change anything. I say that if it won't change anything then why not just do it instead of putting it off for years.

I guess I'm just a bit fed up and this is just a bit of a whinge. I don't want to leave over this obviously as we have a good relationship, but I want to be married to him and I don't want to have to nag about it.

WWYD in this situation. Can you change the mindset of someone who is not very bothered? He is quite laid back anyway so it comes as no surprise that he is in no rush to do this.

Should I bring it up? Should I forget about it? Should I resign myself to the fact it may never happen?

I am hoping he is secretly thinking about it but I doubt that very much.

I need advice!

I have ended three serious relationships in my adulthood because the man wanted (and went on to have) a more traditional set-up.

Why don't you be honest from the very beginning and stop wasting their time then. Social norms tend to be marriage and kids ..... If you don't want those things that's fine, but be upfront about it.

I know it isn't the same but imagine your DP was going for a new job and he found what seemed like the perfect job but it would involve a big move. At the interview they asked what he was looking for in a role and he said he wanted a specific training course, company car, and a clear promotion route. And they said "yep, that will all happen in the future." He double checks before moving that those are the conditions and they have a verbal agreement so he goes for it. No mention of it in the contract but he makes the big move believing this to be the job he wants based on what he was told. A year in, none of the things promised have materialised, so he asks about the training, car and promotion and gets told "it will happen." A year later, he asks again and they say "the money isn't in the budget right now." He starts doubting it will happen and his enthusiasm for the job wanes. After another year, feeling a bit resentful, he asks again and they say "you aren't getting any of it." He understandably feels pissed off. He thinks of the other opportunities he could have pursued if he hadn't have moved and spent 3 years in this job. He thinks "I would never have taken this job if they hadn't have promised those things." He wants to know whether it was all a lie just to get him to take the job or whether ir was genuinely on the cards and they changed their mind. He wonders whether he can stay or whether he should look for another job. When he asks to talk about it so he can understand and make decisions for his future they refuse to discuss ir, except for saying "if you stop talking about training, a car and a promotion then one day perhaps we WILL give it to you, but as long as you want to know where you stand we won't consider it."

Surely, he can see how that would feel?

I think if you don't want to split up, you should be very practical about it. Make an appointment with the solicitors, tell him he's going to it. Tell him you are putting all the agreements in place that you need to as an alternative to marriage.Present him with the bill. The power will then be yours and he will not have the excuse that you are nagging him about marriage. I think a lot of men who'dont believe in marriage' think marriage is a symbol of them getting old and tied down. Even if they adore you and would never cheat and never want to be anywhere else, the social conditioning is that of the 'ball and chain'. They feel if they are not married they have the option of being free if at any point something changes. Even if it never does and he doesn't want it to.

*I have ended three serious relationships in my adulthood because the man wanted (and went on to have) a more traditional set-up.

Why don't you be honest from the very beginning and stop wasting their time then. Social norms tend to be marriage and kids ..... If you don't want those things that's fine, but be upfront about it.*

I have been sure since I was a teen that marriage and kids were not for me and have always been upfront about that with any romantic interest. The men in question were not looking for a marriage partner when we began dating but began to want that as time wore on and in each case we knew then that our relationship wouldn't be long term. No hard feelings and I certainly did not feel I owed it to anyone to change my stance, any more than they owed it to me to forego what they would find fulfilling. People can be compatible, loving and attracted to one another in many ways but still have dealbreakers.

OP, you keep saying he has made you feel devalued etc. It's unhealthy to give anyone that much control over your self esteem. Perhaps as others have advised some counseling is in order.

Thank you Toad, it's been a very painful time

Weirdly my ex and I already have the same surname so my child has my name anyway and thankfully my house is mine because I had it before I met him and wouldn't put him on the mortgage/deeds unless we were married!

Ah shit I typed a massive supportive post and it vanished.

Basically I was there. We are still together and very happy. It was hard to accept. But you can move on from it. It dosent mean he dosent love you! He just dosent want the whole wedding shebang.

Give it a go. Just see how you do. If he is a good partner then you are already a lucky woman. Fuck the wedding. Peace and love to you.

To be honest he has made me feel totally and utterly worthless. Whether it's his 'belief' or not, I'm taking it personally. To me it is personal, it's a big fucking slap in the face.

Which I think is fine, because he's not acting like it's his 'belief'. People who don't believe in marriage don't say they might do it at some point then refuse to do it because they want a big wedding, before finally admitting they don't want to but not coming out with a proper reason why. If he has actual beliefs about marriage, as opposed to some vague, idiotic idea that omg it'll change the relationship and I know loads of people who got divorced, he owes you an explanation of what they are.

op, you think my earlier post was mean but I wasn't trying to be mean. I was trying to get you to think about your earlier decisions because that may actually give you clues to help you work out what the hold up is here

Btw, he's not being honest because he probably isn't sure why. He likely has some vague sense of discomfort and wrongness when he thinks about marriage similar to the vague sense of rightness and security that you feel when you think about it. You're not interested in getting married because of his pension! You just think about marriage and it feels right.You have to understand that he feels similarly, just the other way.

Getting from that vague unspoken fear to reasons is hard because it's uncomfortable and scary to talk about things that scare you. And he knows that you will try and knock down whatever reason he gives and he's probably ashamed that he's afraid and feels guilty that he's hurting you and so he doesn't want to talk about it. Let's talk about something else!

But you have to talk (probably in therapy) and BE HONEST. For example, you got really mad and defeatist when people brought up you both having a child. But no one is trying to shame you. This is not a blame issue or a "you're stupid" issue. It's trying to actually discuss your reasoning and his reasoning at the time so that we can maybe parse what his actual feelings re marriage and commitment are. The truth is that many of the stories other posters have posted don't really fit yours. Plenty of people are together 10 years without a ring. Plenty of people accidentally fall pregnant without being married. Plenty of people don't value marriage, have a kid and don't get married.

I've literally never heard of a couple together for such a short period of time (4 years) with a planned child, a house and a life together where they are already in crisis over the marriage question. Never seen it. That suggests something different is going on and maybe looking back over your relationship will reveal it rather than treating the past 4 years as some sort of aberration.

If he's been honest an upfront from the start it would be a non issue. I think you have to take a little bit of responsibility. You knew he'd bought a house and had a baby with another woman and hadn't married her so you must have had an inkling that he might not be the marrying kind. In your situation I would have put my foot down much earlier in the relationship - in fact I did. Being with my DH required me to move abroad and I was absolutely adamant that I wouldn't give up my job and leave the country unless we were married - I felt I was making a fairly massive commitment by doing those things and wanted him to do the same. If he hadn't agreed I wouldn't have gone. I'm not saying this to criticise you, I'm just trying to make the point that you've been happy to go along with it up to this point so I think leaving seems a bit extreme. You can't turn the clock back you can only go forward. You've bought the house together, you have a child together - you can't just walk away and have a clean break. I don't think it's insurmountable - you still have your job and you say in your OP that you have a good relationship. I think you may well have to resign yourself to the fact that it might never happen - focus on the good relationship you have otherwise you are in danger of tearing yourselves apart anyway. I don't think your son's name is such a big deal - I know at least two married women whose children have their husband's name while they have kept their maiden names so they don't share a name even though they are married.

OP, you dont wanna be in the position of my friend who thought he might propose when he left his wife...then thought he might when they moved in together....then after first baby....they're now on their third, have been together twelve years and he hasnt even got divorced. Resentment has eaten her up. They are both utterly miserable.

You need to work out is this is a true dealbreaker for you.

Do you really think your relationship is going to survive this? He's spent the last 4 years telling you one thing whilst believing another, you're quickly going to end up resenting him and you'll no longer see him as the "great partner".

I know several couples who did the house, baby, but the man still refused to get married, so the woman would change her name by deed poll and eventually they'd split because the underlying resentment tore them apart.

"I tell you it was pindrop silence for a moment after she said it. BIL looked like a bit awkward, like he wanted the ground to open up"
Good lord, why?

A11 sorry I did get defensive I was/am upset.

You're probably right. In fact I think you are right.

To the pp who said I should take some responsibility, I thought I had. We talked about it. I didn't think anything of the fact he didn't get married before. Maybe I should have but I didn't they were both young and skint so I just sort of assumed that was why. I dunno.

Anyway I've been thinking and I don't think it's a deal breaker.

Obviously I would like to get married. Ideally that's how things would go. I don't know whether they ever will. Probably not is my gut feeling.

I think sorting legal stuff is essential probably either way, and then maybe in time he will get used to the idea, or I will be happy enough as I am and forget it.

Things obviously do change so I think I should just stop talking about it for everyone's sake but mainly my own, and see what happens.

If he doesn't want to marry me then he can think of some other ways to show that he loves me and isn't going anywhere.

Ring

I'm so sorry for what you went through. How sad.

my house is mine because I had it before I met him and wouldn't put him on the mortgage/deeds unless we were married!

Wise move. Well done for sticking to your guns on that.

Lilacinn

In that case they only have themselves to blame as you were upfront from the start.

I'm pretty sure it will purplefox.

I would quite like counselling anyway, because there are other issues I have that I would like to talk to someone about (none dp related) and I feel like those issues are probably linked somewhat to the way I feel about this.

Sorry I'm not meaning to be deliberately cryptic.

I feel like maybe marriage is so important to me because of some issues I have had in the past. I think the idea of stability and forever is something I am probably quite reliant upon.

I'm not saying that I've over reacted or that some counselling will make me think that getting wed is a load of old balls, but it might help me rationalise why I want it so badly and how I can come to some kind of a compromise. Like pinpoint what it is about it, and work on that aspect with DP.

Thank you Sandy x

Maybe you are attracted to partners who are quite independent? It's possible that the stuff you value about your partner is part of what makes him a person who isn't going to be bothered about marriage?

In my case I preferred someone who let me have my own space and life and that was driven by my childhood- you could think about if there's something like that in this relationship for you?

If that's all rubbish I apologise! It's just it helped me to realise I had picked someone quite independent and non possessive and I liked that. So him not wanting to marry made sense- this may not apply to you!

It could well be something like that.

As much as I am quite independent as is he, I do rely on him. That's really contradictory isn't it!

I'm not sure how to explain it!

Bert

"I tell you it was pindrop silence for a moment after she said it. BIL looked like a bit awkward, like he wanted the ground to open up"
Good lord, why?

It was the way she addressed it BILS side of the family (though hers were there, but they must have known) When she said "for the time being", it was obvious she meant ... while they weren't married and that it had been discussed.

It was also the assumption from my DH and the rest of his family that the child would have BILs surname, especially with being from our ethnic background/culture, where it would be going totally against tradition for a child not to have the father's surname especially if it's a boy, as was the case.

My DH and the the inlaws actually stopped writing DCs surname and just put his first name. They couldn't bring themselves to write her surname.

Thank you, SandyY2K, but the fact is in my case there is zero "blame" to go around because there were no hard feelings. We enjoyed one another for a while, even loved one another in two of the three scenarios, created some wonderful memories and eventually went our separate ways because our priorities were different. That doesn't mean the time we did spend together wasn't great.

Thinking of relationships as "a journey, not a destination," to use a cliche, might help.

IMO the issue is no longer one of marriage. It is about your partner being in control, and putting himself before you, even when you are upset. You are not an equal partnership. He is the boss. You need to shut up and stop going on, like a good girl. In return he might think about marrying you. (...) Your partner isn't the man you thought he was
This ^

Counselling (alone) is very often a good idea, but wanting marriage is very common and is logical, due to the legal/financial protection it provides to the lower earner/asset holder/parent, not likely to indicate you have issues from your upbringing.

By all means get individual counselling if you want to discuss other issues, but for this particular issue I don't think you are going to move forward as a couple unless you can discuss it with each other - so you will need couple's counselling. Perhaps you could discuss general questions about decision making, power balance and commitment - not "just" the marriage question (although that seems like the big issue I think they're all interlinked).

littlerabbitface

No apology necessary. I really do feel for you. The limbo must be agony.

Dozer
Counselling (alone) is very often a good idea, but wanting marriage is very common and is logical, due to the legal/financial protection it provides to the lower earner/asset holder/parent, not likely to indicate you have issues from your upbringing.

the best thing in relationships is to own your true feelings and rationales, not hide behind things being "logical". Also, counselling can help determine why you might pick a partner who can't give you what you need to feel safe.